I think what normally isSubmitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Fri, 12/04/2009 - 14:03
I think what normally is said, is that the Italians still have that large family close knit thing,rather than being more child loving than where ever else in the world! But i soppose as children are part of the family, then some have indeed, strenched the story to being more child orientated than say some others,and the story you have thankfully brought to our attention does show that not ALL Italians are as pateint and upto date with how children should be treated.The rest of your post, is basically something that can be leveled at all western countries, ie how difficult it is to bring these people to justice, so lets be clear here adraitica, this is not "just" an Italian thing. Only a couple of months ago a women teacher at that in the south of England was inprisioned for being part of a peudo ring using the children [INFANTS] in her care and sexually abusing them, indeed does that now mean all Teachers in the UK are peado's ?The case took ages to prove,and still she has not named all the children abused!and indeed she too was backed at first by the school and the communty! What i am saying is these days you mainly post strong negative peices on Italy, Which is not a bad thing to do in itself,sod the rose tinted specs, but you do it with such venom,blaming all establishments as being somehow far worse than you are used to from where land you lived before, Yet it anit that much difference anywhere in western Europe so why cristisice so strongly all the other groups for acting just the same as everyone else does!
I TEND TO AGREESubmitted by Gala Placidia on Fri, 12/04/2009 - 14:25
I tend to agree with Giovanni F. Although it is terrible that these things are happening it does not mean that Italy is alone in this type of unforgivable incidents. There are similar cases all over the world and it shows parents that they should be extremely vigilant at all times. I don't think that there are more cases of child abuse nowadays, it is only that we hear more about them.
have to agree with Giovanni -Submitted by Ronald on Fri, 12/04/2009 - 14:27
have to agree with Giovanni - I don't think Italy is so much worse off.Yes the justice system is in tatters and yes a lot can be done to improve it (start with giving magistrates and courts the right resources and also drawing clean lines between those that do the prosecuting and those that do the judging) but that does not mean that the only difference between Italy and the rest of Europe is that here they will not be prosecuted.At least the police here had the ability to setup surveillance that got evidence that cannot be questioned.
surveillanceSubmitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Fri, 12/04/2009 - 14:42
judges and police haveSubmitted by Ronald on Fri, 12/04/2009 - 15:11
judges and police have remarkable powers currently when it comes to video surveillance, phone tapping, etc. in this particular case the dad of one of the kids who is a policeman alert the relevant local police unit who got permission from the judge and the rest is now on the news...
Of course, this is Italy!Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Fri, 12/04/2009 - 15:50
if you read carefullySubmitted by adriatica on Fri, 12/04/2009 - 17:50
my post states without any doubt that these incidents happen all over the world and Italy is no worse or better ... the main difference with Italy is that you are unlikely to get punished unless you have gone against someone who has more power than you...in this case all the parents were fortunate that the child of a police officer that managed to convince a judge to allow the filming of the incidents.. the general acceptance by Italians of misbehaviour in institutions is based on their knowledge that going against anyone within these systems is at best useless and at worse renders serious repercussions against them.. i dont live in the Uk.. dont know UK news so cannot comment on that.. but before i left there several years ago if several parents had brought a problem to light then it would be a case of suspension,investigation and prosecution..the teacher would then loose their salary,their pension, and their right to teach.. i didn't realise the Uk didn't follow this line of reasoning any longer .. as an example of how the system works here.. which to my mind shows in a much less dramatic way what goes on.. the teachers have a strike day.. for your child not to go to school they have to have a note in their diary which the parent signs to say they are aware.. now instead of the teachers giving the note they have the caretakers go around the classes making the announcement.. so you sign as a parent to say you have been made aware.. then the child has to take an official absence form into the school that the parents sign giving the reason why the child was away from school.. this becomes a record of the child's attendance and forms part of their school assessment report.. now you might think that you write teachers strike on the form...but no.. that's not allowed.. .. it will be torn up and you will be told to fill the form properly.. ie your child was sick or some such excuse.. its then accepted.. and is counted as a day of absence against the child's attendance record so that the teachers teaching record remains secure.. .. this is just a basic example of how children learn that the way of things is not to go against the institutions and is carried on all through life... i don't make these rules ..i don't even bother fighting them.. but i am aware.. and i am also not that aware that all my last posts have been negative in terms of Italian life and culture.. will however review them .. and see Giovanni i just looked back at two pages of posts and really cannot see any that are the way you describe.. didn't read them though.. so maybe some might contain a negative comment or two...but then i hardly ever re-read the rubbish i post...generally have no need to ..it gets repeated so many times its almost best selling.. maybe i should start charging for copyright infringements... anyway they were my recent posts and am not sure exactly what i said in them that you are referring to... however you know me well enough i should think to know i always exagerate when making points.. and that am always prepared to have a good debate with you...
That's amazing. I cantSubmitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Fri, 12/04/2009 - 18:50
Adriatica You to me are theSubmitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Sat, 12/05/2009 - 05:25
Adriatica You to me are the reporter of "the darker side of Italy" Which lets be clear is a very important and not to be missed element that forms part of the "whole Italy picture"Your responce to my post,adds key elements and facts that make the original post more understandable to me and the difference between the systems i was comparing[ UK V Italy] just that little bit different.The video bit got me thinking,as did the sucess rates of prosicution, as in the UK, video survailence seems the order of the day, if one wants any chance of a conviction.Add to that the CPS [prosicutors] will not contemplate taking somebody to court unless they think they have a very very strong case, then its easier atleast for me to see just how difficult it can be for any system to get a conviction.And whilst your second post backs up the buracratic and judisaul problems Italy does have, I was trying to piont out the problems do exits everywhere, and are compounded by lots of EU laws, which on the face of it should be good, but actually lead to just what you discribe.A almost protecting of the guilty party because they too apprently have rights...
thanks giovanniSubmitted by adriatica on Sat, 12/05/2009 - 05:49
i know i get under your skin..but i also know you always think things through more than most and i always enjoy...well most of the time... your thoughts.. i didnt watch the video either on you tube or the news... cannot watch that sort of thing...Jinty however is right about privacy laws here.. in most cases video surveillance would be almost impossible to arrive at and this case is an exception.. connections.. that this video has been released to the press and therefore on to you tube... is another thing i find pretty scandalous and is something that panders to voyeurism the world over.. this time though with very young children being seen to suffer it makes it all the more sad..thanks anyway for your thoughts once again.. although as regards EU rules i really think the only country in the whole of Europe that follows them to the letter is the UK... sad really wish they were more Italian in that sense
PARENT´S SURVEILLANCESubmitted by Gala Placidia on Sat, 12/05/2009 - 15:19
I think that there is another point which should be stressed. No matter where you live, parents must make sure that their children are cared for in a proper manner. I know that this is difficult because both parents working is not unusual nowadays; however, it is most important to check on the carers no matter where you are living. Don't take anything for granted.
You make me smile GalaSubmitted by adriatica on Sun, 12/06/2009 - 17:11
a perfect world it is not.. ten years ago parents sent their children to school in the Molise.. a brand new building .. a small earthquake dropped the roof and killed them all.. how do the parents check that one out.. how could they imagine that in a small town the mayor and the comune technicians, the building company ...etc etc...whose own children went to the school would not actually follow regulations and build an unsafe building for their own children.. sentenced i believe if i remember correctly when found guilty to 2.5 years or in the quake in L'Aquila the students that were told that the building they died in was safe..even our sons school in Teramo ..one we checked ... and asked lots of friends about ... a school of many years excellence.. was closed like all schools and public buildings after the quake.. until it was checked.. we began to wonder what was wrong when many of the other public buildings were opened and this school was still not.. apparently it had never received a certificate of safety and in fact when it was checked this missing certificate was noted ...then it was found that with the number of children on a three story building that it was unsafe as regards evacuation.. meaning should there have ever been a fire most of the children on the first and second floor would never have got out of the building alive... so yes i agree we have a duty to ensure our children's safety but we rely on the honesty of the state and their duty to us as a first line my argument here is not against Italian people it has been and usually is the corrupt institutions... i worry so little about Mr B..and his actions because they will not effect us... what to me is the biggest criminality here is the local / provincial/ regional representatives.. they are the ones that will ruin your lives for a few pennies...reports today on the original piece i posted have the defence lawyer withdrawing because he says he cannot defend one of the women involved .. the mayor of the comune saying the school was an exemplary place of child care.. the general consensus that this happens a lot and that the children are fortunate that one was the child of a police officer... otherwise it would never have come to light...one parent saying it had gone on for five years... and was common knowledge others saying the place was wonderful.. and calls lots of them for the all powerful teachers unions here to stop defending bad teachers and allow them to be removed from the system.. a thought so radical here that it will most probably have another strike called for ...