Can Italy finally come out the other side?

There is a frighteningly conservative (small c) side to Itaian opinion, and it seems to me that Berlusconi (more as a personality than a party leader) has entrapped even fiercely solid PD adherents into a mindset that anything else 'will be a disaster'. IMO the foreign press absolutely fails to distinguish between Berlusconi (the clown) and the (admittedly few) members of his administration who do manage to command a bit of international respect. Above all there is Tremonti (the finance minister, who so far has not been implicated in any serious misdemeanours). I distinguish between the foreign press, and the Italian press, because the latter is massively influenced by Berlusconi, but (inevitably) that part of Italian media which isn't under his thumb plays up the perceived ghastliness of Silvio - but on a Red Top basis rather than on his real evils. For me it would be very sad if he 'fell' to Rubygate rather than falling to his much more important failures. I really don't care if my PM screws around, even with teenagers, but I do care if he is lining his pockets (allegedly) alongside Putin, Mubarak, and Ghadaffi.

So long as he goes I'm happy. Not an Italian but I feel for the country as Raggio describes.  Just the briefest of accquaintance with its sufferings (malaria; WW2 rastrellamenti; the mezzadria - never mind organised crime) shows it deserves so much better Forza donne Italiane!!

its good to see such a balanced view from the second poster who obviously has a good grasp on the real situation and proposes quite a level headed question in a situation where it seems the press in Italy has none of the balance of this post Termonti knows from past traitorous behaviour that it lethal for a political career to go behind the back of a leader..  and in a sense he is very comfortable as a second in command and would he make a good leader.. am not sure ... he might be just too bright .. although i have seen him change a lot to a very relaxed and often quite humorous character.. would love to see him in charge the fini,casini,rutelli so called new party is filled with politicians of at leat twenty years in parliament and have all very dubious pasts from the money taken from rome... to strange criminal partners and apartments being sold off.. to a very close mafia connection.. even worse to my mind the controlling influence of the vatican...  the left.. hampered by the fear of Bersani that Vendola will be elected the leader is now sending out peace pacts to all and sundry to appear like an electable alternative.. coalitions from as far apart as the IDV and the PC and UDC being proposed which would all mean an electable government in numbers but a nonsense in the form of a majority that would be able to do anything as they would end up arguing about everthing and would soon fail.. much like the last Prodi government its very true that for Italy this is a very dangerous time because the powers aligned against the elected government are non elected and non democratic.. despise Berlusconi as you will but his downfall now will be the direct result of an intellectual left wing magistrature and a moralistic vatican cei... both of which are a far more dangerous threat to democratic process here and if they are seen to suceed in this god help the country..  bindi is like a female pope preaching to all and sundry over the power of women whilst approaching it from a side where her view of what women should be is stay at home and pray every evening for gods guidance and accept that as a woman you are not free to express yourself in any other way than as a dutiful wife or daughter..  god help her if she ever met an essex laddette.. is that the right word.. she is demonising the whole sense that woman who choose to behave in a certain way are on the dark side ... her next role will maybe be a missionary to fonts of all evil like london or new york where she will preach on the streets against women having one night stands or drinking pints...   this is the true battle going on now.. and Berlsuconi is not the best person to represent the other side.. i wish he had reigned as leader before this started and let Tremonti or Alfano or the education minister.. Gelmini .. i think take the lead.. what is eveident in all this that the only party doing well and seen to be serious about Italy is the lega nord.. about to offer candidates in many places outside of the north and with coalitions of other regional parties in the south i would not be suprised if they did well... sadly this government which has led Italy through this world crisis to arrive to this point will not be remebered for any of the good.. no bank failures, no housing crisis and no de rating of its economey by world finance gurus.. after germany and france the strongest economey in europe..  with a tax level higher than most thanks to the last prodi government but which has been maintained by this one.. but which Italians remember well and which will make a left wing government here unacceptable as everyone knows they will add to the tax burden again in order to fund their own pockets.. Berlusconi might well be ridiculed abroad but Italians know the alternatives hidden in sheeps clothing are even worse and that everytime they are elected Italy becomes a state where the sun never shines and all is grey and miserable..     

If this is good for Italy, then it will be a blessing in disguise. In any case, I would love to be one of the three female magistrates to judge the old satyr. Or perhaps he would object saying that the court "is too pink" as he said regarding the Spanish government because there were too many female ministers. He treats women with contempt and Italian women deserve respect.

Putting aside the trial by media, the indiscretions, and the 'private' behaviour,  the problem for me is more basic.  Berlusconi cites the power of the people - the people are not sovereign in a constitutional democracy, it is the constitution that is sovereign, and he has patently abused his position.  To appeal to the people as his judge is the worst sort of tinpot dictator politics.  But then he has spent 20 years consolidating an otherwise untenable position thanks to his media network and powerful allies.   The hypocrisy shown by the right to keep in him power is shameful, but they know that without Berlusconi there is a void in the centre right as big as the vacuum in the centre left -Without B there is no PDL -  Berlusconi for all his faults has provided - a strong personality - charismatic if you like - as a focus for the last 20 years.  There has been no other politician with an ounce of charisma or personality.  Italians crave this - but Itlaian politics,has remained stuck in the 19780s as far as the British would see it.  Its like watching Michael Foot against Enoch Powell - the idea of images, decent publicity, soundbites, etc does not exist in Italy.   And it is here where the left fails so dismally.  If, for example, the left did the famous Thatcher shopping basket that basically won her the election in 79, it would show just how much taxes have risen and buying power has fallen under Mr B - but they are incapable of delivering a pithy sentence and an image when a lengthy discourse will suffice.  As for Tremonti, can you name another country where a 'tax efficiency' accountant would be also chancellor while keeping his day job?  This is a man who makes laws, safe in the knowledge that he earns 4 million a year (2008) telling his clients how to avoid paying tax, and salting money away in off shore havens and then he has the gall to say he has no conflict of interest.   Until Italy sorts out its parliamentary laws - ie, an MP is only and MP and cannot keep their day job:  the electoral process where a dental hygienist can become a regional counsellor on state pay in the space of 24 hours with no previous experience over those who have spent years involved in politics on a voluntary basis:  the obscene pension arrangements of MPs who only have to hang on in there for 5 years and then receive a lifetime pension of 8000 euros per month:  the odious possibility for Ghedini to be an elected MP and be paid copiously by the state, but who works exclusively for Belusconi on his private legal matters, etc etc etc there is no hope for Italian politics, because it is the worst of the worst old boys clubs.  Electoral reform, parliamentary reform, media and reporting reforms, conflict of interests,  are the basics to bring Italy into the 21st century, because its much treasured democracy has ceased to exist, and is waved by both sides merely as a banner to keep them safe within the hallowed halls and line their own pockets. 

For years I have listened to my English friends jibing at me about Berlusconi being a ridiculous political figure whilst suffering apparently unconcernedly under the likes of Brown, Prescott, Harman, Abbott, Mandelson, various Milibands etc etc. They are the real political buffoons. TK

excellent reply from ram..  depressing in its truth... you just know that those elected under this system will never vote for change to it..   you only need to serve i believe 2 years and a day.. something like that and you gain a full pension.. you will note that most governments here do not fall until that period is passed..used to be shorter...  political parties are virtually guranteed an income via grants which is why there are so many.. living on one of the highest salaries is not enough for most.. they then set up their own party .. then newspaper .. another guaranteed money spinner.. based on distribution not sales... a reason why they are given away for free.. they just have to be printed to get the grant..

Perhaps Italian women are going to start their own "revolution": http://www.discountvouchers.co.uk/news/158693535.html Berlusconi has forgotten that if you are a public figure your life is no longer private. His "indiscretions" are notorious, he has lost all sense of propriety and dignity.

Your list of buffoons curiously includes only left wingers - surely you should not omit Jonathan Aitken, Derek Conway, Andrew Mackay, Jeffrey Archer - and they broke the law as well as being buffoons.  The real buffoon is Osborne, possibly one of the most intellectually challenged Chancellors in history.  The people on your list are not buffoons, they are mostly very clever, but merely have different political views to your own.  They also have not repeatedly broken the law, insulted foreign leaders and MPs, lied repeatedly to parliament and then counter lied the next day, 'joked' in appalling taste managing to insult most minorities in the process, and spent years devoted to passing laws of direct relevance to themselves at the expense of 'government'.    Diane abbott et al may not be everyones cup of tea, but dont compare them to Berlusconi - it shows a political ignorance that can only be born of the Daily Mail.

Your list of buffoons curiously includes only left wingers - surely you should not omit Jonathan Aitken, Derek Conway, Andrew Mackay, Jeffrey Archer - and they broke the law as well as being buffoons. Wholeheartedly agree, but none of them have been in Government while my friends have been taunting about Berlusconi, so irrelevant. Read the words.  The real buffoon is Osborne, possibly one of the most intellectually challenged Chancellors in history. Well there's that Brown fellow to consider in that category; I won't post his failings due to lack of bandwidth, but believe it's well documented in Vernon Coleman's book "Gordon is a Moron". Diane abbott et al may not be everyones cup of tea, but dont compare them to Berlusconi Didn't. it shows a political ignorance that can only be born of the Daily Mail. The reason I normally stay away from any threads to do with politics is because someone always eventually demeans himself with cheap jibes. T