It wasn't a coincidence that everything went quiet after I emailed the Comune - good idea. We just had a visit from the Project Manager and someone from the Comune. The most noisy phase of the work is over, that of demolition, and they've been told to be as quiet as possible. If they need to make a lot of noise they're to check with us first, and we have the number for the Project Manager so should they make too much noise we call him and he will tell them to stop.
My Italian listening comprehension isn't first rate but if I understood correctly there's some aspect - possibly the equiment used - which was not meant to be used in this scenario, maybe the thing that sounds like a pneumatic drill.
Many people complain of their interactions with the Italian State but I have to say that they've been incredibly efficient at everything while we've been here. Action within a couple of hours.. the video of the noise was probably a factor.
Thanks. This morning I emailed the Comune and supplied a copy of the sign on the front door together with a video of the noise.
About an hour later the porter came up to talk to them and they left.
Sadly, it surely has to be a coincidence. I could hear his voice but not what was said.
The information on the Comune website has much to say about street works and parties, but nothing about noise in apartments.
I'll see what they say - I asked for details of the restrictions to which the workers must abide - so maximum noise levels as one example.
A detatched house is the answer. My searches have revealed that the number of detached houses at any price to rent in or near Bergamo is.. one. Albeit it's very nice and not much more expensive than this central apartment. This has got us thinking in a very different direction for the future.
Thanks. I spoke with our friends here in Italy, who seem to think this is normal and nothing can be done. Indeed both of them seemed bemused that we would try to do anything about it.
I'd have thought that in a country where everyone lives in flats (we're trying to find a house instead, and it's not easy) there would be strict laws about noise nuisance. However it appears that anyone can make literally any amount of noise for any period of time if it's for the purpose of renovating a flat.
So if you work nights, for example, after three months of falling asleep on the job you'd probably be sacked, and this is acceptable.
I have to make calls to clients and I've had to abandon several of those because the noise is horrendous. It's not just a bit of hammering, but smashing down walls, pneumatic drills and so on, all day, every day, from Monday to Friday, for three months.
We had planned to move but we have to give three months notice. In a worst case we'll just have to move and forfeit the deposit on this place.
In the meantime I'm going to speak with the landlady today just to keep her informed about this, and try to get onto the Comune department.
Do you mean the Administrator of the building? She's never here..
I spoke with the porter who says the work was agreed with the Administrator.
I suppose we could write to the Administrator, but we're renting. I can raise this with the landlady who could then write to the Administrator.
But I was hoping that this would be a very straightforward matter to submit a case to court with recordings of the noise and have the work stopped altogether or at least limited.
The lack of 'Wokeness' - attitudes are straightforward and uncomplicated.
People seem much happier than they do in Britain.
The beauty and cleanliness of the buildings and streets.
It's said that Italy is bureaucratic, and it is, but the State actually works much better than the impression that's given by some, and people are helpful.
The personal contact you have with people - for example, at most shops and cafes you'll speak to the owner, who really does care that you're happy.
The food - the range isn't so extensive, but if you like pizza and pasta the flavours and freshness are amazing, as are the fruit and vegetables.
Thanks. I'll have a chat with the porter this morning - he will know more.
This apartment is rented, so unless the landlord wants to install a heating system I suspect all we can do is close all the valves on the radiators, maybe ask if the porter can shut off the heated water supply to the apartment just to be sure, and then we can use the electricity to heat it instead. It's far from ideal, but the centralised system doesn't work very well anyway. At any given moment air blockages in the radiators mean that some of them aren't working at all until they're bled, then another one stops working.
That was I guess we will only pay for the electricity plus the fixed central heating cost and no metered usage. If any metered usage were then billed, this would mean that the readings are wrong and the meter is faulty.
But our only real option is to move somewhere else, which we're looking at now. As you say many people have chosen to install their own heating and it's easy to find plenty of apartments with their own heating system.
Yes, it is, but I don't want to ask "Do we need to pay this" since:
1. We are paying this monthly - all property listings of apartments for rent, like ours, include a figure for spese condominiale and what puzzles me is why the landlord collects this each month when it's the tenant that receives the bill. I can only imagine that it is to make sure it is paid because the landlord is the one actually accountable for making sure that happens.
2. The landlord might think "I'll just say yes. That way I get 2,400 EUR per year, and I get to keep most or all of that for myself. They can pay twice".
We have asked around and some friends have the identical situation. They receive the bill, but because like us they pay the landlord monthly they ignore the bill and it is paid by the landlord. This is how I imagined it must work.
The weird thing is that the bill is sent to the tenants, who are not accountable: it is the landlord that is accountable. This makes no sense at all to me but seems to be how things work.
Apparently the tenant is responsible for paying the charges, but the accountability lies with the landlord. Which is mad :)
So we have a bill for 975 EUR for the condominium expenses.
However so far we've already paid 1,200 EUR (200 EUR per month) to the landlord for the condominium expenses as set out in the contract.
So am I right to assume that the landlord knows when this falls due and pays "our" bill; that this is how these things normally work and that way she knows that it gets paid?
As the landlord is the one held accountable for making sure it's paid, which is presumably why she has asked us to pay these expenses to her monthly (2,400 EUR per year in addition to the rent which I guess includes both this 975 EUR and other costs like the central heating) so that she can do exactly that.
The estate agent was very good and made an attempt to explain everything in every section. My Italian is OK however the contract contains technical terms with which I am not familiar.
I came away with the understanding that the condominial expenses were 200 EUR per month (I think the advertisement for the property said exactly that, I have a picture of the page somewhere) which covers water, heating, the porter, property maintenance etc.
We pay the rent of 800 EUR per month + the condo expenses of 200 EUR per month = 1,000 EUR per month to the landlord by bank transfer each month.
Neither UBI Banca nor the landlord have our bank details. There is a section on the payment slip from UBI Banca which I can complete if I want the money to be taken out of my bank account automatically.
So we pay 2,400 EUR per year to the landlord for le spese condominiali already.
As we are not the owners of the apartment I do not understand why this bill has arrived addressed to us.
Comments posted
It wasn't a coincidence that everything went quiet after I emailed the Comune - good idea. We just had a visit from the Project Manager and someone from the Comune. The most noisy phase of the work is over, that of demolition, and they've been told to be as quiet as possible. If they need to make a lot of noise they're to check with us first, and we have the number for the Project Manager so should they make too much noise we call him and he will tell them to stop.
My Italian listening comprehension isn't first rate but if I understood correctly there's some aspect - possibly the equiment used - which was not meant to be used in this scenario, maybe the thing that sounds like a pneumatic drill.
Many people complain of their interactions with the Italian State but I have to say that they've been incredibly efficient at everything while we've been here. Action within a couple of hours.. the video of the noise was probably a factor.
Thanks. This morning I emailed the Comune and supplied a copy of the sign on the front door together with a video of the noise.
About an hour later the porter came up to talk to them and they left.
Sadly, it surely has to be a coincidence. I could hear his voice but not what was said.
The information on the Comune website has much to say about street works and parties, but nothing about noise in apartments.
I'll see what they say - I asked for details of the restrictions to which the workers must abide - so maximum noise levels as one example.
A detatched house is the answer. My searches have revealed that the number of detached houses at any price to rent in or near Bergamo is.. one. Albeit it's very nice and not much more expensive than this central apartment. This has got us thinking in a very different direction for the future.
Thanks. I spoke with our friends here in Italy, who seem to think this is normal and nothing can be done. Indeed both of them seemed bemused that we would try to do anything about it.
I'd have thought that in a country where everyone lives in flats (we're trying to find a house instead, and it's not easy) there would be strict laws about noise nuisance. However it appears that anyone can make literally any amount of noise for any period of time if it's for the purpose of renovating a flat.
So if you work nights, for example, after three months of falling asleep on the job you'd probably be sacked, and this is acceptable.
I have to make calls to clients and I've had to abandon several of those because the noise is horrendous. It's not just a bit of hammering, but smashing down walls, pneumatic drills and so on, all day, every day, from Monday to Friday, for three months.
We had planned to move but we have to give three months notice. In a worst case we'll just have to move and forfeit the deposit on this place.
In the meantime I'm going to speak with the landlady today just to keep her informed about this, and try to get onto the Comune department.
Thanks. Am I right to think that the department is "Edilizia Privata"?
I'm grateful for your advice.
https://www.comune.bergamo.it/organizational-unit/c_a794
Do you mean the Administrator of the building? She's never here..
I spoke with the porter who says the work was agreed with the Administrator.
I suppose we could write to the Administrator, but we're renting. I can raise this with the landlady who could then write to the Administrator.
But I was hoping that this would be a very straightforward matter to submit a case to court with recordings of the noise and have the work stopped altogether or at least limited.
The generous, outgoing nature of the people.
The lack of 'Wokeness' - attitudes are straightforward and uncomplicated.
People seem much happier than they do in Britain.
The beauty and cleanliness of the buildings and streets.
It's said that Italy is bureaucratic, and it is, but the State actually works much better than the impression that's given by some, and people are helpful.
The personal contact you have with people - for example, at most shops and cafes you'll speak to the owner, who really does care that you're happy.
The food - the range isn't so extensive, but if you like pizza and pasta the flavours and freshness are amazing, as are the fruit and vegetables.
Thanks. I'll have a chat with the porter this morning - he will know more.
This apartment is rented, so unless the landlord wants to install a heating system I suspect all we can do is close all the valves on the radiators, maybe ask if the porter can shut off the heated water supply to the apartment just to be sure, and then we can use the electricity to heat it instead. It's far from ideal, but the centralised system doesn't work very well anyway. At any given moment air blockages in the radiators mean that some of them aren't working at all until they're bled, then another one stops working.
That was I guess we will only pay for the electricity plus the fixed central heating cost and no metered usage. If any metered usage were then billed, this would mean that the readings are wrong and the meter is faulty.
But our only real option is to move somewhere else, which we're looking at now. As you say many people have chosen to install their own heating and it's easy to find plenty of apartments with their own heating system.
Yes, it is, but I don't want to ask "Do we need to pay this" since:
1. We are paying this monthly - all property listings of apartments for rent, like ours, include a figure for spese condominiale and what puzzles me is why the landlord collects this each month when it's the tenant that receives the bill. I can only imagine that it is to make sure it is paid because the landlord is the one actually accountable for making sure that happens.
2. The landlord might think "I'll just say yes. That way I get 2,400 EUR per year, and I get to keep most or all of that for myself. They can pay twice".
We have asked around and some friends have the identical situation. They receive the bill, but because like us they pay the landlord monthly they ignore the bill and it is paid by the landlord. This is how I imagined it must work.
The weird thing is that the bill is sent to the tenants, who are not accountable: it is the landlord that is accountable. This makes no sense at all to me but seems to be how things work.
The plot thickens..
Apparently the tenant is responsible for paying the charges, but the accountability lies with the landlord. Which is mad :)
So we have a bill for 975 EUR for the condominium expenses.
However so far we've already paid 1,200 EUR (200 EUR per month) to the landlord for the condominium expenses as set out in the contract.
So am I right to assume that the landlord knows when this falls due and pays "our" bill; that this is how these things normally work and that way she knows that it gets paid?
As the landlord is the one held accountable for making sure it's paid, which is presumably why she has asked us to pay these expenses to her monthly (2,400 EUR per year in addition to the rent which I guess includes both this 975 EUR and other costs like the central heating) so that she can do exactly that.
The estate agent was very good and made an attempt to explain everything in every section. My Italian is OK however the contract contains technical terms with which I am not familiar.
I came away with the understanding that the condominial expenses were 200 EUR per month (I think the advertisement for the property said exactly that, I have a picture of the page somewhere) which covers water, heating, the porter, property maintenance etc.
We pay the rent of 800 EUR per month + the condo expenses of 200 EUR per month = 1,000 EUR per month to the landlord by bank transfer each month.
Neither UBI Banca nor the landlord have our bank details. There is a section on the payment slip from UBI Banca which I can complete if I want the money to be taken out of my bank account automatically.
So we pay 2,400 EUR per year to the landlord for le spese condominiali already.
As we are not the owners of the apartment I do not understand why this bill has arrived addressed to us.