7895 Disabled Beggars

its actually quite a topical thing here at the moment.... lots of citizens in many of the major cities are getting fed up with it ... and mayors are responding to the concerns... one city...i believe rome... is now making it illegal to have children with you if you are begging and the social services will take them away...

another tv show... did an investigation of people that are deformed and begging on the street... only to show them ...when not at work...walking and moving quite normally...

right or wrong the major blame for this situation .... and the increase...its always been common enough here is the EU border controls and the so called Roms... half the time they seem to be confused who roms are... either rumanians or romanies.. depending on who you are talking to...

there is a marked increase in the resentment towards what italians see as taking advantage of EU freedoms of movement and it is being combined with the political fights over criminality , drugs and street crime... a not abnormal thing when you have a left goverment running the place with many unpopular...solutions to criminals and crime...

only the other day ... a so called Rom...actually born in Caserta, Italy... was given a six year prison sentence for driving whilst drunk and killing four children...in a small town near ascoli... the sentence has been changed to a six year house arrest... in an appartment block close to the sea.. his home... and its this sort of thing... he is of rom parents that start many of the ugly scenes ...in fact after the accident a rom camp near the village was fire bomded... there is a building pressure to do something about it all and i would say your beggars are part of this whole problem... although not to say either that there are not italians on the street too... but in general these people are victims of organised criminal gangs rather than failures of social services...

Jackie, I think that you will find that the beggars in Rome are organised and it stands to reason if you are organising a (very profitable) begging business, you do not ‘employ’ young healthy people.

I have seen the Guardia di Finanza in Rome driving around with the ring leader in a van rounding up his 'employees'. Although it is easy to blame immigrants and ethnic minorities for organised crime such as begging and prostitution they are often as not victims of local organised crime gangs.

I believe that it is recognised now that 'people trafficking' is more profitable than drug smuggling.

As an aside, I witnessed my first 'paraffin' on Saturday. He was filthy dirty, sitting on the ground outside Auchan, drinking and shouting at passing shoppers. As we passed he must have heard us speak because he shouted after us in perfect English 'Hey Inglesi, I hope you had a good holiday and have a good journey home'. He was obviously a well-educated and well-meaning tramp!

Yes I was always cynical about a lot of the begging, but the obvious illness, and distress of the few I saw (the guy with huge tumours laying on the path all bloomin day every day, and the guy with awful amputations, obviously not medically done,) was different to anything i had seen before in Italy. Venice is the worse place i've been in for organised begging. I was there in 2004 and that was the first time i'd seen the women with the babies and children. In Rome, the people hassling with hideous weird toys and bubble blowers, were the most annoying; they popped up in front of one in all the crowded places, pushing things into the face. The black guys, selling allsorts, specially hand bags, still prevalent, but they wernt so pushy as they had been a few years back when i first saw them was in venice. Or maybe I've just learned to look disinterested enough not to be hassled!

so what of my two beggars mentioned, my original question? [I]Would [/I]they receive money from the state? it was apparent they could do nothing but sit or lay or crawl.

On our first visit to Rome in the '90's we saw beggars with their children, many of them obviously in pain. We were told that many of the beggars actually physically harmed their children to attract more sympathy. I find it hard to believe people can hurt their children in this way just for the money?

Lorraine

I know in asia and some very poor parts of the world, begging is seen as a role, and maiming oneself to get more sympathy and better financial reward, common. That would include people maiming their children.

However, the ones I'm referring to didnt come into that category. Especially the poor guy with huge tumours on his head and face.

[quote=Lorraine;73569]I find it hard to believe people can hurt their children in this way just for the money?

[/quote]

No reason to believe the kids have any relation to the adults. More likely somebody gave the real parents a few $$$ for the kids and now the kids are working off the debt. :madd:

[quote=jackie;73567]so what of my two beggars mentioned, my original question? [I]Would [/I]they receive money from the state? it was apparent they could do nothing but sit or lay or crawl.[/quote]

Jackie, I have felt exactly the same when seeing some awful cases throughout Europe; however, it is well known that there are "maffias" behind very many of these beggars and they "import" some of these disabled people to wealthy countries and they use them to generate income. Possibly, these people are not Italian but illegal migrants. I have a cousin who is very active with "Caritas" (the Catholic Church welfare organisation) and she tells me that most of these people are exploited by some organisation. The problem is... would they beat them up if they do not get enough money... ???? Even if I know it may not be right I tend to give money to these people. I simply can't help it.
I must add that I have seen myself a guy in an expensive car giving instructions to a bunch of Eastern European beggars, well-known by everyone in the city of San Sebastian (Spain) where I reside most of the time. This is a small city and we know most of the regular beggars as they seem to be around the Old City and the few churches in the downtown area.
I would say that the beggars you saw are being exploited by somebody else... Still, you can only feel horrified by their sufferings.

Thanks Dixi. When we saw the guy first, my son thought he had fallen. we were on the opposite side of the road. he said,'' why isnt anyone helping him? then we saw he was a beggar. when we came out of the Vatican , about 5 hours later, he was still there in the same prone position. My son gave him some money of his own volition, and I was proud of him. The world is still the same after all these centuries, Rome still has people crawling and others driving. I guess the poor will always be with us, and exploited, as you say. What a horrible life, poor people.

As an aside note, Adriatica.....they are rroms, and are not Romanians but of Indian and Muslim origin actually, they receive the most amazingly horrid treatment by the police in Romania, and are scorned not only there but everywhere in the world.

Originally they were traveling musicians, however when the need changed to djs and bands etc they had no work and this added to the mess.

They are born in Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria and well all Eastern states and also those they move into. We have our own version at home too, who seemed to be well,much the same. Big 'family' of mafiosa sorts, which would steal and then threaten you if you tried to do anything about it.

However, remember that one day you may point a finger of hate to one race or such, only to find yourself being saved or what have you by a person from that race/country etc the next day, the world is a very, very large mix.

Its easy for us to automatically imagine we are automatically welcome in Italy, however, this isnt the beginning and end of it. Some have said we drive property prices up, some say we are too cold...and alarmingly Lega Nord wants us out as we were not with Italy in the war...

We must have rich and poor and everything else between, otherwise we wouldnt be able to exist as we do. We should help the poor if we can, however.

All the best

Zac

zac

i agree...my point was that in certain quarters here they seem to use rom as an all encompassing word for people not rom...but who are criminals...

recentley..well in fact yesterday the seven channel her ran their nightly survey...its on during each news

the question ... do you consider italy a rascist country?... 79 % said yes... obviously its not one of the main channels ...but its a reflection

Presumably the 'Rom' is short for Romany, alternatively known as Gypsies in UK?
Did they perhaps originate in Roumania many years ago? There is a (largely comical) programme on Virgin/Sky called 'The Riches' with Eddie Izard and Minnie Driver etc which is set in America and has reference to Romanies/Travellers/Gypsies... presumably some are there? Apologies if I am taking this off thread, just a bit fascinated at the origins...

Staying off thread a little bit longer, found this on BBC website...
Ever wondered where words like ‘cushti’ and ‘wonga’ come from? In fact they are Romany words, part of an ancient sanskrit language that originated in the Indus Valley in the Indian sub continent over 1000 years ago.
No one quite knows why, but tribes of people left there in the 9th century and written records suggest that they made their way across Europe first arriving in the UK in the early sixteenth century.
It was initially assumed that these dark Travellers were from Egypt and today’s word ‘Gypsy’ is a shortened version of ‘Egyptian’.
Some authorities believe that Romany Gypsies are now one of Kent’s largest single ethnic minorities, this is also the case for other Eastern and Southern counties such as Cambridgeshire, Essex and Surrey.
Little wonder then that their language, Romany or Anglo-Romany, should have an impact on everyday speech in the region.
A couple of generations ago when most Gypsies were still leading a horse drawn lifestyle, the children grew up on the road constantly hearing Romany spoken by their families and friends who travelled with them.
This was an Anglicised version of the language, in which Romany words are used within an English grammatical framework.
However, now that the majority of Romany Gypsies lead a sedentary life in houses or on permanent sites, the youngsters spend a lot more time amongst non Gypsies and the use of the language is diminishing.
There are real fears that it will die out altogether and that this cornerstone of the Romany culture will disappear. One way of strengthening the language would be to compile dictionaries, audio tapes and other teaching materials so that those who wish to can learn more.
This would cause problems for many Gypsies, particularly older ones, because the language has always been kept a secret from the non Gypsy population and producing teaching materials would make it available for anyone to learn.
In addition it has always been a spoken language with little or no tradition in the written form which means that there is no body of Romany literature available in the UK.

[quote=Robini;74948]We must have rich and poor and everything else between, otherwise we wouldnt be able to exist as we do. We should help the poor if we can, however.
[/quote]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype]I think that most of us are very quick to judge other people, of course, there are people who try to scam, but there are many around who really do not have anything left in this world. My guess is that it is only going to get worse. I remember that 20 years ago the Roma’s were working the streets in Rome even then, you could recognise them straight away, very often they got aggressive, when you did not give any money, kids included. When ever somebody acts too aggressive or rude I will not give anything. However most of the other times I will give some change and in the winter you can also offer them something warm to drink or eat, if they are really beggars they will accept this gladly. [/FONT]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype]I remember one person in particular, there used to be a fairly young guy with his dog, who used to beg at the corner of my local supermarket in Rome, I actually talked to him a number of times, he was a very nice guy, who just had a lot of misfortunes in his life. Wonder what happened to him in the end. Still after 20 years, I have not forgotten him. [/FONT][FONT=Palatino Linotype]A little compassion would suit us all….[/FONT]

Adriatica, no worries. I think everyone here knows that Rrom means Rroma or gypsy, but the reason for them being called this is still a confusing subject-by the by, zingari is the normal name here. Everywhere seems to have their own version, but the ones who travel a lot around Europe now seem to be the Indian/Muslim origin ones, noting the look they have.

To say they are all thieves or beggars is impossible, lets say that the main part who come here are in a very sorry state, and then lets add to it that most do not wish to employ them. To say they are all the same is like saying all Italians are mafia, and this is even glorified on tv, but we all know this is not the case-people here cannot stand the mafia generally as a matter of fact. But we see on the news that in Napoli young people are shooting each other nearly every day-in amongst decent good people, who are minding their own business and horrifyingly getting caught in the cross-fire from time to time.

As for Italy being racist, well that depends, some say south is racist others say north, me im not so sure-a lot of words are spoken, a lot of blame is given to 'x' immigrants, however if you ask these 'haters' if they truly HATE anyone from a set race or such, they simply dont. If they do its very rare. Italy is after all, relaxed.

Now, the problem that does exist however, is that people-be it from wherever you wish, whatever race you wish-have come in and still come in who are criminals, who have even killed people in their own country, and this isnt stopped when it should be. There are so many who could come instead, who would truly never even dream of doing anything illegal in their lives.

And for those who say; 'why should anyone come in?' then why was anyone ever allowed out? one of my ancestors was...hence the nick. chose England,rest is history. Cornwall, one mining story-Italians came to work in the mines due to good pay-much better than that at home of course,1910/1920 etc, resentment from locals was ever present. Were remembered by all for wearing nets on their hair to protect it from the dirty job that is tin and copper mining.

Fiorellina-dead on, a little compassion......goes a long way.

Pennywhite-interesting info, most odd that they originate from the Egyptians, who appear to be the earliest and most extreme of civilizations that we know of as having existed yet, and now they are the most disliked of any race in the world perhaps. A sorry state of affairs.

Best of wishes to all of you

Zac