7703 Windows, wood, aluminium or PVC

[quote=Steve, cittadino di Ovada;72184]At the stage now where we need to start thinking about the above, whilst i would prefer good quality hardwood windows as i just like them, the chances of being able to afford them are very remote, about 28 windows to replace.

any wish to comment on what they think best ?

I have seen that now aluminium widows come with an insulation rubber between internal and external parts to cut down on internal condensation/ heat tranfser. also Italians seem to favour these, any views.

PVC and warping, is this true or not ? Some have aluminium inserts, some don't, which , if any are good?

steve[/quote]
We have PVC wood effect windows. These are double glazed, very realistic as visitors think they are the real thing. Best part is no annual painting which you have to consider if the sun is on them a lot of the time. With the company we used we got a 40% discount as we ordered 15, so I am sure you could get a good deal as well

As much as I like wooden windows such as yourself, I would advise against, as they do require maintenance, especially in years to come its a job you may not look forward to, and most of the timber nowadays is not properly kiln dried so unless you pay a lot through established companies you wont get the product you want and can have a lot of maintenance issues through expansion, contraction, warping etc, not including the normal 3 to 5 year revarnish. The option between upvc and Aluminium is a cost issue, you can buy upvc windows quite cheap but they do tend to suffer the same problems as wooden windows, they do expand and contract and also warp in the same way, especially in Italy due to major temperature changes. You can upgrade to a good reinforced upvc but in my experience upvc still reacts in the same way and can be costly. Aluminium is personally your best option as you can have it in any type of wood veneer you want, it has superior sound reduction qualities if that is an issue, it doesn’t expand contract or warp but they can be as costly as timber windows.
Check out what your neighbours have installed within a mile as there are local companies that they choose for good reason. Also remember you get what you pay for so get the cheapest quote for the best product. Because the main construction of your house is the most important for the future.

we also took the aluminium route, for the whole house... mainly for resons stated above, although upvc people will always say that it is now much better quality and lasts better... i dont know... we are happy with what we bought and there are discouts...you will find little workshops throughout italy making made to emasure aluminium windows and fittings

however its not exactely a procedure of replacing like with like... or shouldnt be...

when they come to measure for new windows you need to make several decisions... we chose interanal windows with some of the hinged two ways ..ie off the side and then tiltsing to allow an opening at the top... especially in kitchens and bathrooms they are a good idea...because we have 1 metere wide walls the windows also do not stick out that far into the room.. and often the older windows were central closing so came out less... there were two small ones...however if you replace this way you looses light and add to cost...

then we had roller blind insect screens on all windows... i would say this is almost essential for mosquito free nights in the summer... i know there are alternatives... like stapling netting to the walls but thats a pain and then you cannot get rid of them until the end of the summer... besides after mosquitos the flies arrive... nto that bite ..but looking for places to lay eggs for the winter and they are annoying...so screens are useful...

then shutters... ok aluminium isnt as secure as steel but its the next best thing and it keeps major amounts of heat out when the sun is beating down ... major amounts of cold when the wind is really driving and allows with regulation at night plenty of air in without the worry of sleeping with fully opened windows.. and the sun waking you at 5.am

we also have medium gaps... unless you go higher than say 500 metres ASL or are in a very cold area medium gap is enough... but choose carefully ... Italians neighbours will often choose less in that sense .. but i have always found italian houses cold by comparison to what i am used to in winter and they often spend their life by wood fires... and you get this sort of reflective type glass as well which helps to reduce summer heat

anyway the whole thing hangs off a aluminium fram which is made to measure and is fixed in about a week before any windows arrive ...to set properly...they make good the plasterwork around it and repaints walls ... they then come and hang everything you have asked for off it and clad the bare aluminium with whatever color you have chosen... for some opeople that cannot stand the look of metal or plastic they can even give you real wood on the inside ...

it does cost ... and i know you are struggling to get a business going... i would try and get the best in aluminium terms... and even if you dont want to put shutters and nets in now say... have the frame element built to allow you to fit these later when say cash flow is better and the business is running along nicely... it will make life easier in the future even go for cheaper gapped windows now.. cause replacing them is easy.. its the frame installation thats messy ,noisy, time consuming and labour intensive..

Steve I agree with comments on the previous posts. I think it also depends on what type of house you have as well as where you live..sorry, I don't know where Ovada is. There are indeed Aluminium or PVC wood effect windows that are very realistic and if you get the right colour, most people wouldn't see the difference from a distance.

Personally, I went the real wood route (although expensive). If you do choose wood I would advise you to go for a hardwood. If they are properly treated they will last years.

To give you some idea, I had 15 large windows with shutters fitted plus 1 Oval picture window and a large 4 metre wide picture window (no shutters on the picture windows) and paid 16,725 euros. All in Castagno.

Biagio

I have had no problem with the PVC windows that we have here warping. In fact some are directly in full sun for most of the morning. Think it purely where you buy them from, ours are German but from an Italian supplier. Cost for 15, plus external shutters that can be moved to increase or reduce light was around 10000 Euros. Main house door in Castagne warped after under a year, even though it was made by a craftsman and cost about 2000 Euros. They had to come and take it away to straighten it as there was a bow in the middle of about 1cm. It's okay at the moment, but then we will see what happens after this winter

I still think that good quality correctly dried wood will outlast any other material but there is no way i can afford them.
In my area there are many smaller window companies and i could have any of the three types made, so it seems also italians around here are undecided which to have.
Geotherm, are your windows VEKA. i have a local Italian co. that makes these German PVC windows and the cross section looks robust with steel strengthening beams in all sections and "wood" finishes which do look good.
Would be interested to hear if they are the same as yours and if so does the price you have quoted include the exterior persiane slatted blinds and IVA, if so seems good , in fact very good, to me and would give me a price to aim for that I would almost be happy with.

Steve

Forgot to say that my butcher recommended these VEKA ones and I always believe that it is a good idea to listen to a man with a big Knife and who knows how to use it.

steve

steve

forgot to say...whichever windows you end up with there should be a reduced VAT element on it for making your house more efficient... but you have to make sure you have the right papers before any work is started... your accountant or geometra should have the papers available to fill in...

[quote=Steve, cittadino di Ovada;72243]I still think that good quality correctly dried wood will outlast any other material but there is no way i can afford them.
In my area there are many smaller window companies and i could have any of the three types made, so it seems also italians around here are undecided which to have.
Geotherm, are your windows VEKA. i have a local Italian co. that makes these German PVC windows and the cross section looks robust with steel strengthening beams in all sections and "wood" finishes which do look good.
Would be interested to hear if they are the same as yours and if so does the price you have quoted include the exterior persiane slatted blinds and IVA, if so seems good , in fact very good, to me and would give me a price to aim for that I would almost be happy with.

Steve[/quote]
Steve.
Our windows are Kommerling, if you Google for it then you will find there are many sites that make a reference to them. Have just checked the price we paid, Windows & Opening shutters came to Euro 10300.00 after the 40% discount and that figure incledes IVA @ 10%. Delivery time was approx 5 weeks from the order.

we are going for PVC that look like metal (slate grey) mainly from the perspective of minimising time and money on repainting/varnishing every x number of years. We have seen some that are similar in a building our builder has previously done and they look great.

Ciao

I'm looking at two preventivos for windows and doors, both for chestnut wood. One is for unvarnished, but with anti-mould anti-woodworm protection - old, rustic looking and the other is for properly varnished with polyurethane type stuff, and modern looking. Our house is supposed to be rustic but all this restoration is making it a bit too smart. Would we regret the unvarnished windows having to maintain them? Should we go for the modern, smart job and be free of maintenance?
Got to make a decision soon!

We are probably going for aluminium shutters. Italian friends all say wood shutters need too much work, but they say that windows are protected behind the shutters. But for how long?

I have just replaced 22 windows and a set of doors with new hardwood windows, I am also resotring the chestnut shutters on all bedroom and living areas and are hopeful from talking to neighbours that they will offer lasting protection to the windows. I am realistic in that they will need maintenance but the impact on asthetics and compliments from neighbours is worth the work plus it is more in keeping with my rustic tastes and wghat we could do in the conservationa area I am in.

Restoring a Casa Colonica in Umbria we, (and all our neighbours) where not allowed to install anything but wooden windows. Chestnut wood was used. The windows open inwards of course and yes, when there is heavy rain, a significant amount of water poured through and into the house. We then had to fit solid shutters outside, to pull shut when it rains!! We ended up with the inside shutters we installed, (in keeping with the original house) and outside shutters and a huge bill...it seems to us that the alternatives using modern materials do keep out the rain and we agree they look good (particularly in dark green), no one can tell the difference except our Comune!!

Thanks to all of you for this very useful thread.
May I ask Noble which commune in Umbria is causing you to use only wooden windows? We are looking to buy in Umbria and found 4 to 5 inch holes gnawed through the old wooden window frames and shutters - therefore, aluminium would be safer!

Yes, the delights and dilemmas of what to do about windows! We are in Umbria and have about 20 windows to put in. Contadino's comments ring particularly true. An earlier post suggested that "company" windows might be better and cheaper than those produced by your local falegnamo and yes, I do agree that contemporary can be mixed with old, to very good effect. We looked at Panto in this respect, but found their products - predominantly tropical hardwoods - almost intimidatingly efficient and well made, but ultimately too glossy, 'cold' and somehow lacking in the right feel for our particular building. One might argue that a single, or double paned casement window, is pretty much the same, wherever you might get it from, so what's all the fuss about? Tantalisingly, however, the devil is in the detail: the use of a strip of wood for the drip, as opposed to a machined curve, used for the same purpose; the methods used for retaining the glass, nailed on strips internally and externally, or a carefully bevelled edge to the main frame on the inside and single strips on the outside? Most especially, the traditional Umbrian use of little, internal, wooden scuri (integral to the frame and a close fit to the panes), really do help to make an otherwise quite bland fitting make all the difference to the room that it's set in. The finish is critical isn't it? I've seen some softwoods, finished with both matt and gloss stains that look wonderful and others that look just plain wrong! As to what kind of wood to use, yes chestnut is indigenous and one might expect it to be tougher than pine, but some falegnami, will argue that pine, being more resinous, is in fact the better option. Perhaps it depends, on the quality of the softwood and how quickly it has been grown, rather than the fact that it is softwood per se and for sure, the quality of the finish is critical. Last week we were fortunate enough to be shown some windows. (made by one of our local joiners) that we really loved and this has been followed by another recommendation for a local joiner, again with some impressive examples. Oh, and by the way, none of the extraordinarily helpful and intelligent friends and craftsmen that we spoke to were bilingual, or "of English extraction" ( see Rob's thread on this forum). So, the advice for my 'window shopping' contemporaries? Shop locally; stock up on warm clothing and hang in there until you are absolutely sure you've found what you're looking for... in my experience you'll know it when you see it!

They started 20 years ago the best windows in the world UVpvc for the Scandinavian market. They are all but gone today. They won’t do exactly what they say on the tin.

Have you ever tried repairing an aluminium or plastic window? Near damn impossible. Wood can be chopped, spliced, replaced and repainted. With the modern techniques being employed by reliable ISO9001/9002 companies you have windows for your lifetime.

Please keep the aluminium and uvpvc on the estates in UK; don’t start ruining old Italian farmhouses with …aluminium shutters… I’m despairing.

What is wrong with the UK property owner in Italy? If it was all about cost move to Spain!

On top of that the number two polluting companies in Europe are Uvpvc manufacturers.

You should be paying about €186/m2 for pine windows including turn & tilt with tempered glass argon gas filling giving a k value of 1.0 W/m2K and for the whole window around 1.2-1.3W/m2K from a reputable Iso9001/9002 company.

I can’t agree with hardwood frames; so a little maintenance every 10 years – I feel it’s worth it – if for nothing else the environment.

... and don't get me started on their thermal bridging properties or the lack of them....

Answer for realm. Our Comune is Passignano sul Trasimeno. But note: We restored a totally ruined Casa Colonica, starting with the small "barn" cow shed, now a 2 bedroom cottage! The project began in 1998. I cannot bear to type how much we spent on the project as I did not know we had so much money...we don't now!!! Solar panels on the roof??...no....well perhaps things have changed?

... I'm resolving not to rise to the bait any more... Io, thank you for the useful and informative comments about window materials, but your plea to "please keep the aluminium and the UPVC on the estates in the UK", rather undermines your own position, is surely a less than useful opinion and for some, might be seen as really quite offensive.

Lupo,

Obviously you got the hold of the wrong end of the stick. Let me explain “… estates…”…

This is not meant derogatively it is just simple economics; larger property owners whether they be the council or estates in the hands of larger private companies see wooden windows as a continuing yearly cost in the form of maintenance.

Their approach is to change the lot to plastic or aluminium (mostly plastic);

a). because it is a cheaper capital cost
b). there is very little maintenance (or so they think) that’s why property owners in Scandinavia have returned to wooden windows besides the environmental reasons.
c. they care not for heating costs – this is the tenants' problem
d. aesthetics is not high on their list of priorities as the balance sheet is.

Now private owners of a single property (like you and I) tend to look at things from a different angle, maybe aesthetics first or even heat transfer. Pleasing our eye as well as our wallet. Naturally as all things in life – it’s a compromise; but my point was that al or plastic are not part of rustic or ancient buildings in Italy.

My apologies if I offended but my intention was in no way to offend.

:smile:

Io,
Apology accepted,
just that some of my best friends live on estates and appreciate ecology/aesthetics/form and function as much as the rest of us! You have made lots of thought provoking and interesting comments though!
Lupo

[quote=lupo;83512]Io,
Apology accepted,
just that some of my best friends live on estates and appreciate ecology/aesthetics/form and function as much as the rest of us! You have made lots of thought provoking and interesting comments though!
Lupo[/quote]

As said I don't mean to denigrate anyone; unfortunately your friends don't (or hardly) get a say in their opinion about aesthetic/form & ecology. Which is a real shame .....

:smile:

[quote=contadino;83038]I'm looking at two preventivos for windows and doors, both for chestnut wood. One is for unvarnished, but with anti-mould anti-woodworm protection - old, rustic looking and the other is for properly varnished with polyurethane type stuff, and modern looking. Our house is supposed to be rustic but all this restoration is making it a bit too smart. Would we regret the unvarnished windows having to maintain them? Should we go for the modern, smart job and be free of maintenance?
Got to make a decision soon!

We are probably going for aluminium shutters. Italian friends all say wood shutters need too much work, but they say that windows are protected behind the shutters. But for how long?[/quote]

I've said it before it's not so much the windows that take the punishment as the shutters. I understand your choice but again most reputable manufacturers locally will offer a 10 year guarantee for the paint on wood.
So after 9 years and 364 days make a quick inspection and call the company over to repaint them!!

.... and what's so difficult about unhinging them and sending them over to be stripped and resprayed every 5-8 years. At least the house is in keeping.... We shouldn't complain about the maintenance if it is aesthetically pleasing and in keeping ... in my opinion.

:smile:

lotan you and I are in agreement about plastic windows, please dont ruin parts of Italy with these 'imports' they will only look ok on a modern house and even then cannot be justified on an environmental grounds!

If you live South of Rome I personally would go for pine painted with several coats of very good water based paint. Ours ( now replaced with chestnut but 'rehomed' with Roy Freezer) hadn't been repainted for at least 20 years and they were'nt in a too bad a state.For shutters chestnut is better as they are going to bear the brunt of the bad weather.Oak would be good but very expensive.

Possibly a capable diyer could make up some rustic style shutters from reclaimed woods and hinges.These could look wonderful on an old stone house.

We tried to find out if our chestnut frames could be left unpainted as some are I the uk but the carpenter was against this.We got him to use a light impregnating solution but we have had some problems with staining on one window.I suspect the way to go on the outside would be several coats of dark varnish but we didn't want that look.I've seen some pics of chestnut doors with terrible staining so I think you would need to be sure your wood had been correctly stored and seasoned (not easy).

Metal is ok too but please no pvc

[quote=manopello;83589]lotan you and I are in agreement about plastic windows, please dont ruin parts of Italy with these 'imports' they will only look ok on a modern house and even then cannot be justified on an environmental grounds!

If you live South of Rome I personally would go for pine painted with several coats of very good water based paint. Ours ( now replaced with chestnut but 'rehomed' with Roy Freezer) hadn't been repainted for at least 20 years and they were'nt in a too bad a state.For shutters chestnut is better as they are going to bear the brunt of the bad weather.Oak would be good but very expensive.

Possibly a capable diyer could make up some rustic style shutters from reclaimed woods and hinges.These could look wonderful on an old stone house.

We tried to find out if our chestnut frames could be left unpainted as some are I the uk but the carpenter was against this.We got him to use a light impregnating solution but we have had some problems with staining on one window.I suspect the way to go on the outside would be several coats of dark varnish but we didn't want that look.I've seen some pics of chestnut doors with terrible staining so I think you would need to be sure your wood had been correctly stored and seasoned (not easy).

Metal is ok too but please no pvc[/quote]
I've heard that chestnut leaks tannin so no good for shutters as the tannin stains the walls, plaster etc.

Just to corroborate this, I know of two falegnami in our area who are happy to work with chestnut but warn about it's tendency to stain.

[quote=Noble;83487]Answer for realm. Our Comune is Passignano sul Trasimeno. But note: We restored a totally ruined Casa Colonica, starting with the small "barn" cow shed, now a 2 bedroom cottage! The project began in 1998. I cannot bear to type how much we spent on the project as I did not know we had so much money...we don't now!!! Solar panels on the roof??...no....well perhaps things have changed?[/quote]

Thank you very much.

Hi
I am searching for old doors to restore. I don't want to put modern ones in an old property and find the bespoke very expensive.
My wife reassures me it will be a labour of love .... so I am on the hunt for old doors to restore, if anyone is taking them out please let me know, or if anyone knows of an equivalent to a salvage yard where I might find some, not too far from Marche, I would appreciate the contact.

Thank you
Michael

How old is your house? Is there a style of door that you have got already that you are trying to match? How many do you need? How big do they need to be?

Hi Mammamia

Our house is about 170 years old so quite new by Marche standards. We have three doors along the front which we must leave in terms of size and position (in line with the comune rules). I am tempted to try to restore the exsisting ones but am concerned that they may be just too far gone or at least two of them are. So I need to get advise on those. (I can send you pictures in a private message if you like).
But at the back and side we are putting in new openings so size doesn't present problems. I am keen to use old doors as I am trying to keep the house looking the same at the back as the front, but its also a matter of finance as the cost of new doors is extraordinary.
I am also looking for internal wooden doors - as there are none at all at present. One or two new openings and some exsisting ones all different sizes. I guess I could try and make my own simple lever and brace doors but its a matter of finding old wood then.
Do you know of a place where there are old doors or do you have some yourself?
Thanks again for taking an interest,

Hi Michael
Ok there are two places that I know of. I have heard people talk about a reclamation yard near Sant Angelo in Pontano which has doors and old wood, and I have passed a place on the SS16, near Porto Recanati, where there is a restorers which always seems to have old wooden doors propped up outside on the pavement. I have also come across the odd single door in various restorers workshops in the area, particularly in South Marche.
Hope this is of some use.