Do you loive the Mafia (Camorra, n'drangheta)?

03/02/2012 - 14:14


So - clearly you are going to answer NO to my query. Read this - which comes from an internatioanally respected organisation - and consider whether you would like to add your two pennyworh. It could make a difference, and it doesn't matter whether you are a Brit, or an American, or an Italian; just signing this petition could possibly make a difference, and can in no way harm you. "Dear friends from across Italy, We have a historic opportunity to adopt a strong law against corruption, but only if enough of us raise our voices can we beat Berlusconi who is pushing hard to water down the law. We have just a few days left before Parliament's discussion -- sign the petition and tell everyone! Sign the petition In days, our Minister of Justice will announce the key elements of a new anti-corruption law that could be the best chance Italy has ever had to stop this crime. But unless we all weigh in now it could be a toothless, useless bill. This new law could empower judges to fully investigate corruption cases, bar corrupt politicians from standing for office, and protect whistle blowers who denounce abuses and irregularities. But Berlusconi's party is pushing hard to water down the law. Right now with local elections around the corner, our politicians are especially sensitive to public opinion. If enough of us remind them that their vote on this could cost them re-election -- we could get the strong anti-graft bill our country needs. Corruption costs us, taxpayers, 60 billion euros every year, not to mention its poisonous impact on our democracy. We now have a clear opportunity to curb it. We only have days to influence the process before it is laid before Parliament. Click below to sign the petition to clean up our democracy once and for all, and tell everyone:  

Glad to hear that from dolcevita - not only does every signatory help, but also if this looks like a lively thread others might just read it and add their support.

You've got no chance of making this a lively thread here - unless someone kicks it off big style - but I can almost guarantee a thread on alcohol free wine will be a different story... Signed up (as disgruntled of Harrogate)

Yes, I signed up. We all should. Avaaz is pretty effective; They organised a petition against a new intellectual property treaty (ACTA) and secured over 2.4m signatures and this was then presented on 28 March to the European Parliament.  So, yes this kind of grass roots action does work.

Signed. Have been part of so many things that all went down the tubes due to apathy. And, as Einstein puts it so succinctly The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.  So, how about it.

In reply to by Bella

Well, it aint worked so far, rather than corruption in Italy going down it is rising at a rapid rate. Every month, communes are being dissolved because of corruption.If you look at yearly charts compiled by various organisations you will see that corruption in Italy is worse than some African countries.Italy always comes out very badly on these yearly analysis. The people that make the laws have also been investigated for corruption.... It's all very third world!!

That comment is not far off, but I think that the 'old school tie' in the UK is less endemic than the commonality of the 'political classes' (in both Italy and UK) - thus the parallel with the Italian system is quite reasonable, but it doesn't split across 'party lines', either in Italy or the UK. (IMO) Basically, with a very few honourable exceptions (and I'm beginning to doubt Beppe Grillo) any politician anywhere in the world is an untrustworthy lying bustard. However, the organised criminal 'families' in Italy are a more pervasive evil, affecting parts of society well outside the political, (which is not to say they don't exert a forceful and evil influence over the political scene), but it goes so much further in terms of affecting everyday lives that there is nothing comparable (today) in the UK to 'the mafia' (using shorthand here). One could argue that the Krays, in the east end of London in the 70s, played an analogous role (to the mafias) - and there are people who would argue (possibly quite persuasively) that the Kray family was rather better at retaining laura norder than has been the Met. If your 'family' is acknowledged as corrupt, and rulers, then that's a given, and we are foolish if we believe that a police force will be lily white. It's about human nature - but I don't believe that the vast majority of the population want to put up with the mafias (or the Krays) so it is defeatist to just shrug your shoulders and say 'it was ever thus'. (That sounds a bit Shakespearian - and I imagine it was just the same when he was around!) So yes, I agree that encouraging people to sign the avaaz petition can easily be dismissed as an idealistic hope, but it isn't as if it can do any harm. If the support which the petition gained encouraged even one Palermo patisseria to stop paying protection money, that is a good thing.

In reply to by Fillide

We are not just talking about small criminal gangs in various areas, this is a country virtually run by them. In a recent article it was said that the Mafia 'bank' is the biggest and most successful bank in the country.In liguria alone several communes have been dissolved including Ventimiglia and Bordighera, and Imperia and San Remo are having problems also.But it's not just gangs, the whole country is run on corruption, Italy is recognised to be one of the worst in Europe and indeed the world.This is why the country is in the pathetic state is in now. Problem is, one is petitioning the very people that are at the heart of the corruption. I'm afraid Italy is a third world country within Europe!!As somebody pointed out, the Italians themselves are not blameless and the apathetic attitude of the Italians is ' it has always been this way, so that is the way it will always be'Italy needs some drastic, direct action. The nonsense in Naples with the rubbish has been going on for years, no other civilised European country would put up with it and turn a blind eye the way the Italians do.One of the reasons the towns are crumbling is that money is going into lining pockets instead of being spent on infrastructure. The towns on the Ligurian coast from Ventimiglia to San Remo is a good example.Go over the border into France and the difference is breathtaking!!

In reply to by Anonymous (not verified)

Robbiemarce..Ok, they presented a petition..Big whoop, everything is still the same.Rickard, Sorry, but if you think there is any comparison, you are living on another planet. Sure like all countries the UK has problems, but nothing like the scale of Italy. Would there be rubbish on the streets there for 15 years the way it has been in Naples?

Sorry Rickardo but I've never heard of someone being knee capped or shot in the head by a bunch of toffs from Eaton. I think you mistake organised crime with Networking and Contacts.

In reply to by Flip

Agreed, the incidence of old Etonians knee capping is rare to say the least...I don't think Rickardo understands the concept of the 'old boy network'LOL, at the most they would get a jolly good telling off or maybe a thrashing :0)Jokes aside, there is nowhere else in Europe that has the scale and infiltration of organised crime (and corruption) that Italy has.

  I make no excuse for the Mafia, indeed I said it was rife. It is also recognized, as this thread shows, not only in Italy but also the rest of the world.   The corruption in the UK is different  and not as well documented but anyone who thinks the UK is not corrupt is fooling themselves.   There are organized gangs in every major city in the UK. There is even a program on the TV .   And do you know the real truth behind the death of David Kelly . Or do you all believe what you are fed by the Murdock press and its cronies.LOL

Once again you are missing the point, of course there is organised crime in every country but it is not as endemic and as rooted as it is in Italy, commune after commune have been dissolved because of Mafia infiltration. Naples has been a shit hole with rubbish for 15 years because of the Mafia.Recently in Liguria alone, Ventimiglia commune has been dissolved, So has Bordighera, San Remo is under investigation and there is trouble in Imperia.Every year, various reputable organisations publish charts on the state of countries. Every year Italy appears high up on these charts, a lot of times worse than African countries on Corruption, crime, speed and quality of the legal system. not to mention having one of the worse national debts in the world. Italy also came out very badly on a survey of countries that people don't want to do business with, again because of the crime and corruption. Interestingly it also come out as the lowest in Europe and amongst the lowest in the world for legal enforcements of contracts. A contract in Italy isn't worth the paper that it is written on.Where as in Most European countries organised crime and corruption is falling in Italy it is rising. Again I point to the Mafia bank being the biggest and most successful bank in the country.The Mafia controls 15% of the countries. economy Why do you think that Italy is in the pathetic state that it is in now, along with other Med countries such as Spain and Greece.Italy at the moment is being supported by the ECB and the EU with money to stop it going bankrupt.

    If Italy is such a dreadful place why do so many of you want to live here?   My point, which you have missed, is that Italy knows it is corrupt but people in the UK think they have no corruption or that, somehow, British corruption and nepotism is better.   Don’t you have a saying about people in glass houses?

I don't, I moved over the border to France quite a while back, as have a lot of people I know. In fact, at the moment the Italian government is seriously worried about the amount of people leaving Italy, especially the young because of the phenomenal youth unemployment and they are also worried about the amount of money being taken out of Italy by Italians and going to safe havens such as Germany, UK, Switzerland etc where they know the money will be just have to look every morning at the thousands of italians that go to work in France and Monaco, better pay (Italy has amongst the lowest salaries in Europe) better conditions and access to a far superior health system.Once again, there is corruption everywhere, but it is universally recognised that Italy along with Greece is the worst in Europe and also far worse than most other countries in the world. By the way like all countries Italy has immigrants but Italy is by no means a hot spot for foreigners moving here. Any hot country attracts the English especially when it is within easy travelling distance of the UK., but Italy is way below the popularity of France for example.For me, the sun does not make up for the sheer frustration of living in Italy, which seems to be about 40 years behind Northern Europe. High prices and rising every day, high taxes and bureaucracy, shops closing for lunch and closing early, no real decent internet, and a crumbling infrastructure.Even the Italians where I use to live claim that Italy is primitive

In reply to by Flip

LOL, you can get away with more here. The local police don't exactly inspire confidence with their designer sunglasses, cigarettes hanging out of their mouth, and their over the top uniforms. They even wear high heels (the policewomen I hasten to add)

In reply to by Anonymous (not verified)

LOL, the south has got Naples, up here there is Ventimiglia and it's environs which is the biggest shite hole in the area. Dirty, smelly, run down and crime ridden.

If Ventimiglia and its environs are the 'biggest shitehole' and Naples is 'orrible, it's a good job you've fugged off to France innit Bella?

In reply to by Esme

LOL, absolutely, you are right on. don't miss it a bit. No doubt the tired old phrases about Venti being 'real' will be rolled out again. If that's can keep it.This was an interesting article, you can see why the Italians are moving their money out of Italy. is now 6pc below its peak in 2008. Italy has been trapped in perma-slump for a decade, the only major state to suffer a fall in real per capita income since 2000.

  Bella Caroline, I don’t understand, if you loath Italy so much and are so in love with France, why do you even bother to cast your pearls of wisdom here? Can’t you find a forum for Francophiles? I always thought that Ventimiglia’s problem was that it was full of French tourists. Your posts betray the bitterness of someone who failed to make a go of things in Italy but I’m pleased for you that you have found a better place for yourself to live.

Italy lived completely down to my expectations. If you look at the latest figures by the government you will see that even Italians are leaving at a rate not seen since the 60's. Soon as I had the opportunity I left..quickly. I just do not think that Italy has got anything going for it. Ventimiglia's problem is that it is a horrible, dirty, smelly run down town. The only reason that it has French tourists is because of the tatty market and cheap alcohol and cigarettes (Italy doesn't tax cigarettes much but it taxes heating fuel highly..go figure) But it isn't just Venti, all the towns along there are grim.Have a look at this., it's laughingly called the Italian riviera, presumably trying to compete with the French riviera..There is simply no comparison. A lot of Italians go to live over the border in France to live but the amount of people that come from France to live in Italy is minimal.Ventimiglia and the area is rightly despised by the majority of people.

Well, I've signed the petition. Not that I think it will make much difference but let's be positive. I'm reading this thread that takes me years back when I was a young teenager living in centre-southern town of Italy, Gaeta (LT). My family decided to move there from Ivrea (TO) on the grounds of 'my health' , 'theirs' and, well, they fell in love with the sunshine & flowers there were ever present, year round. Yes, the sunshine, the weather, people's warmth, etc, etc, etc were great but I never liked the mentality that can be summed up with 'are you trying to change things here?' and 'the Government must provide and lead'.  I do recall how backwards the town was, and having gone back last month after many years - oh my gosh! :o - I thought it was a squallor. Many buildings, including my Liceo Classico in Formia, still look as depressing as they did in the past. People were friendly and kind but inquisitive (nosy!) as always--privacy? What's that?  The hospital in the nearby town was horrible with no soap, no towels, no curtains on the windows or  by patient's bed . I had to fly into Naples. No comment!  Sadly, Italian corruption is so ingraved in the culture that I doubt it will ever leave that country. It's far too useful to many and highly profitable for some. But who knows? Things might still change, sometimes, at some point.  When? .... .....

I'm with Esme on this one, sure there are some grotty parts of Italy but most of it is still beautiful and to say it's got nothing going for it just comes across as bitterness because of your 'experience' which sounds like it had more to do with your partner than the country. Most people on this forum live/holiday here by choice because they appreciate the beauty of the place, I wouldn't live anywhere else especially not France - it's overrun with ex-pat! :)

At the end of the day the infrastructure in Italy is crumbling..Every day there are reports of accidents in San Remo and Imperia for example because of non maintenance. The economy is likewise crumbling. There has been many reports of Italian treasures being neglected . There are constant strikes, Italy is now known as the strike capital of Europe.Corruption is rampant, as penny is no doubt aware, Bordighera council was dissolved (as was Ventimiglia) due to corruption and mafia infiltration.The salaries are amongst the lowest in Europe and prices and taxes are soaring. Unemployment is high and youth unemployment is staggering.Bureaucracy slows things down to a halt here, shops close for 3 hours during lunch.Italy has the third larges national debt in the world (2 trillion Euros, 120% of GDP and rising every month) and is being propped up financially by Europe. Politicians are protected from prosecution while in office and there has been a string of high level scandals. Nothing has changed since 1990 when there was a massive corruption scandal in the Italian Government (not the first, but amongst the largest)I have lived all over Europe and Italy was the worst place that I have known.Again this is why there is a massive exodus of money and people going on at the moment. Italy is in deep, deep trouble. The Italians are complaining and blaming Europe for the multitude of problems in Italy but they are quite happily taking European money every month to keep them from bankruptcy.

Well Itlaly may be a corrupt, neglected Shithole but it's my chosen Shithole, and with all it's faults I'm here for the duration, and with all it's faults I still love it. So if you don't like it Feck off to somewhere else and leave us in peace. angry

I accept those with a different viewpoint!  Tis this which makes for a vibrant forum (plus the fact we are way overdue a decent fight) and for that I hope Bella stays - and riles us all up some more. It's refreshing - and until Bella starts repeating herself ad nauseam - we should restrain ourselves from pouncing a little while longer. Bring it on Bella - save us all from picking fluff from our navels! disaster (Monti's words..Not mine), Italy still remains a country with an unelected governmentIn fairness, Italy does keep me amused from the sheer farce and incompetence of some of the things that go on there. My favourite one that amused me greatly involved an Electricity cable supplying electricity to Italy from another country came down, causing the WHOLE of Italy to be blacked out.

  Ah Bella, Italy gets in your blood and even though she has spat you out over the border, you just can’t forget her can you? Things are tough all over Europe at the moment. Italy has its problems and France is a beautiful country but I’d rather sink with the Italians than swim with the French. Are there really no forums where you can indulge your love for France? Or is your hatred of Italy so much more important to you, that you have to come here to vent your spleen? France has now got an elected left wing government, which will no doubt do its best to throw a spanner in Europe’s works. It better be an accurate throw or it might just bounce back and give France a black eye., May 15 (RHC)-- Italy’s economy contracted for a third quarter in the three months through March as the nation’s recession deepened amid an intensifying Euro-area debt crisis.According to Italy's national statistics institute, ISTAT, the Gross Domestic Product declined 0.8 percent. The Rome-based institute, in a preliminary report issued on Tuesday, said that the contraction was more than the median forecast of 0.7 percent and the most in three years.Prime Minister Mario Monti’s government is implementing 20 billion Euros -- about $26 billion U.S. dollars -- in austerity measures that helped push Italy into its fourth recession since 2001 in the fourth quarter of last year.Monti is now lobbying European leaders to craft policies to boost economic growth without widening budget deficits as spending cuts and the debt crisis cloud prospects for Euro-region expansion.Italy’s economy fared worse in the first quarter than that of France, Germany and the Euro area. The economy of France and the 17-nation currency region stalled in the first quarter, while Germany expanded a bigger-than-forecast 0.5 percent. ISTAT is scheduled to give a breakdown of Italian first-quarter GDP data on June 11th.

Bella, you're getting boring - and I'm not known for having much patience sweetie. I can feel my muscles quivering as I crouch in the long grass, so give us more than Googled links...

Ranked 69th out of 183 countries, Italy is one of the worst performing EU countries on Transparency International’s Corruption Perceptions Index, which measures perceptions of public sector corruption.San Remo is under investigation as is Imperia for it's handling of the new ports.There was this strange idea here that building a load of new ports would attract people away from the French Riviera..Fat chance!!So far, as always, the building of the ports have been riddled with the usual corruption, delays and incompetence.I've never seen a place with so many half finished projects.Transparency international, a well respected organisation has said that in Italy:'because of flaws throughout society and a lack of safeguards corruption flourishes, the report is a broad indictment of both public and private institutions, giving the country barely a passing grade over all. The study did not measure existing corruption, but rather the effectiveness of safeguards against it. Italy falls short on many counts, said Lorenzo Segato'According to the latest poll by them, only 5% of Italians think that corruption is declining.

Bella sweetie - you're not listening... Tagging on "Fat chance" does not make it an unGoogled cut and paste. Right lads - at the ready... take aim...

It's been estimated that by 2014 Italy will not be able to service it's debts.Although the ECB is pumping money into Italy at an alarming rate there is simply not enough money.The IMF are praising Italy at the moment for it's austerity measures but this is just so much hyperbole because at the same time the IMF have publicly said that they would be reticent to pump money into Italy. There have been IMF observers in Italy for the last few months.Greece isn't the real danger to the EU..Spain is to a degree but Italy is the country that is the real dangerThere has been talk recently of Italy leaving the EU so that they can go back to devaluing their currency (as has been done so often in the past) and probably print money, but if they leave they probably wont receive any more aid from the ECB, but at the same time if Italy defaults there is simply not enough money to save it, and yet Italy would have to be saved because of the threat it causes to the global economy if it goes under. The Germans have been grumbling for some time about how much money is being put into Italy.Despite Monti's rhetoric (he's admitted that the budget will not be balanced by next year. To try and stave off the planned IVA rise their has been further massive cuts in public services but it has been admitted that the IVA increase has not been ruled out despit the increase in cuts.Meanwhile Italy's industrial output continues to decline at a faster rate than any other country in Europe and its growth forecasts, or to be more precise, it's lack of growth is constantly being revised downwards.