The English text of the Proposal for this new Regulation has just been published. This will put to rest most of the dispute and conflict between different European laws on succession.
I have recieved this query which I am posting to start off a debate perhaps with people in similar situations:" I am resident in Italy as from April this year/wife becoming resident later this year.
This was a question from another member in another thread, I though it was worth starting a discussion on this point:"I understand if you are renting your property to a person who is elderly(or maybe there is no age limit) you cannot force them t
The 2005 Green Paper on Wills and Succession recommended that the conflicting succession rules in many European countries should be harmonised by a new EU Regulation.A Regulation is a European law which is directly applicable to all member states,
It is not necessarily the case that an elderly tenant cannot be asked to leave. The Catholic church can do it as Adriatica says!In the case of a normal Italian rental agreement the owner has the right to ask the court for an eviction order if a rental agreement ends or the tenant is in breach ie not paying their rent, although in practice if the tenant is very elderly and has a valid contract this may take years and then be unenforceable becaue the court bailiffs don't want to deal with it.If the rental agreement is long term, usually signed 4 + 4 years at a time, the legal owner could decide instead of going to court to end the agreement and to sell off the bare title, "nuda proprietà", at a reduced price, which is calculated depending on the age of the tenant, which probably was the case of the Comune landlord in this auction. The new owner may then decide to go to court to evict the old lady.It is possible that in the death of a tenant in a long term lease, their spouse or partner or dependant children have the right to take over the existing contractual rights.Charlotte
I assume that only wills made after the Regulation comes into force will be subject to the new rules. There should be no conflict and no need to change an existing will. As soon as the draft Regulation comes out in a few months the answer to this will be clearer.The Green Paper already provoked many comments on grey areas and perhaps that is why the Regulation is taking so long to draft.
Hi Adriatica, I am learning about this too, I put the first post on succession also on the public page, otherwise how would people know about the group?! I assume people with general queries will ask on the public page first too, then maybe if they really want to join the tedious legal debate on EU law they can join the group too! And if they dont contribute constructively...then what can I do? By the way congratulations you are the first member!
Thank you, and I think this site is a very valuable source of information for people.I think you need to sign up to the Group, if you have trouble then maybe I can invite you. I am going to post some background on the legal development in Europe as a public post. Then maybe members can debate the finer details of succession law in the group, when we start going into the concept of domicile and common law rules on trusts etc...
This is the conept of "renvoi" where one country's laws, where there is a conflict, refer to another country's laws.Italian law states that succession law (meaning to whom one can pass to their estate) is regulated by the nationality of the deceased. English law states that the law applicable to succession to real estate is the law of the country where the property is situated. Italian law refers back to the UK etc.So Italy could play ping pong with the UK. And thats just for starters - each European country has different rules.This leads to confusion over whether an English resident in Italy may leave their home to only one of their children, or their next door neighbour, or whether they are obliged by the Italian CIvile Code to respect the "statutory shares" to which each close family member will be entitled. It is a subject which has been debated on the Italymag forum, and which is written about on the internet, but with lawyers often disagreeing in their interpretation. I believe that the national law of the deceased should always apply regardless of the existence of property abroad. I would be interested in hearing from members who have experience of successions in other EU countries, eg France, Germany Spain?Charlotte
Dear TrishaYou have to apply for residence within 18 months of the purchase to benefit from the "prima casa" rule, and new rules were introduced in Italy in 2007 on the requirements for EC nationals to obtain residence. This requirements include having health cover.You have two options, either to produce the E120 (which would entitle you to registration with the ASL in Italy) or if you are not willing to do this because of the risk of not being able to use the NHS in the UK you will need to take out a policy of private health cover in Italy for one year.After 5 years of residence in Italy you will be entitled to apply for permanent residence, and from that point will be entitled to permanent registration with the ASL. If you are willing to pay for private health cover here for 5 years that may be the safest way to keep yourself covered by the NHS.Charlotte
Dear PennyIn a nutshell, you need the attestation to be provided by the Comune to certify that you are entitled to permanent residence. If your permesso has expired you need to show that you have been here legally (and are still). So proof that you are now working should satisfy them.You then take the attestation to the ASL for your permanent tessera sanitaria.You should check law no. 30/2007 and the subsequent Ministerial Circulars which help to interpret this law. Let us know how you get on. Charlotte
Comments posted
It is not necessarily the case that an elderly tenant cannot be asked to leave. The Catholic church can do it as Adriatica says!In the case of a normal Italian rental agreement the owner has the right to ask the court for an eviction order if a rental agreement ends or the tenant is in breach ie not paying their rent, although in practice if the tenant is very elderly and has a valid contract this may take years and then be unenforceable becaue the court bailiffs don't want to deal with it.If the rental agreement is long term, usually signed 4 + 4 years at a time, the legal owner could decide instead of going to court to end the agreement and to sell off the bare title, "nuda proprietà", at a reduced price, which is calculated depending on the age of the tenant, which probably was the case of the Comune landlord in this auction. The new owner may then decide to go to court to evict the old lady.It is possible that in the death of a tenant in a long term lease, their spouse or partner or dependant children have the right to take over the existing contractual rights.Charlotte
I assume that only wills made after the Regulation comes into force will be subject to the new rules. There should be no conflict and no need to change an existing will. As soon as the draft Regulation comes out in a few months the answer to this will be clearer.The Green Paper already provoked many comments on grey areas and perhaps that is why the Regulation is taking so long to draft.
Interesting point. Why don't we start a thread on this in the Property Law group?
Hi Adriatica, I am learning about this too, I put the first post on succession also on the public page, otherwise how would people know about the group?! I assume people with general queries will ask on the public page first too, then maybe if they really want to join the tedious legal debate on EU law they can join the group too! And if they dont contribute constructively...then what can I do? By the way congratulations you are the first member!
Thank you, and I think this site is a very valuable source of information for people.I think you need to sign up to the Group, if you have trouble then maybe I can invite you. I am going to post some background on the legal development in Europe as a public post. Then maybe members can debate the finer details of succession law in the group, when we start going into the concept of domicile and common law rules on trusts etc...
This is the conept of "renvoi" where one country's laws, where there is a conflict, refer to another country's laws.Italian law states that succession law (meaning to whom one can pass to their estate) is regulated by the nationality of the deceased. English law states that the law applicable to succession to real estate is the law of the country where the property is situated. Italian law refers back to the UK etc.So Italy could play ping pong with the UK. And thats just for starters - each European country has different rules.This leads to confusion over whether an English resident in Italy may leave their home to only one of their children, or their next door neighbour, or whether they are obliged by the Italian CIvile Code to respect the "statutory shares" to which each close family member will be entitled. It is a subject which has been debated on the Italymag forum, and which is written about on the internet, but with lawyers often disagreeing in their interpretation. I believe that the national law of the deceased should always apply regardless of the existence of property abroad. I would be interested in hearing from members who have experience of successions in other EU countries, eg France, Germany Spain?Charlotte
Dear TrishaYou have to apply for residence within 18 months of the purchase to benefit from the "prima casa" rule, and new rules were introduced in Italy in 2007 on the requirements for EC nationals to obtain residence. This requirements include having health cover.You have two options, either to produce the E120 (which would entitle you to registration with the ASL in Italy) or if you are not willing to do this because of the risk of not being able to use the NHS in the UK you will need to take out a policy of private health cover in Italy for one year.After 5 years of residence in Italy you will be entitled to apply for permanent residence, and from that point will be entitled to permanent registration with the ASL. If you are willing to pay for private health cover here for 5 years that may be the safest way to keep yourself covered by the NHS.Charlotte
Yes you do need the attestation of permanent residence - and you are right he is fobbing you off!
Dear PennyIn a nutshell, you need the attestation to be provided by the Comune to certify that you are entitled to permanent residence. If your permesso has expired you need to show that you have been here legally (and are still). So proof that you are now working should satisfy them.You then take the attestation to the ASL for your permanent tessera sanitaria.You should check law no. 30/2007 and the subsequent Ministerial Circulars which help to interpret this law. Let us know how you get on. Charlotte