Ram is right,Legal translations can be "giurati" by anyone, a part from the direct implicated party himself.All you need to do is to take a copy of the original and the translation to the "Cancelleria" in your nearest Tribunale and fill in the form where you swear that the translation corresponds to the original. It costs a "marca da bollo" (14,65 €, I think it is) for every 4 pages.Legalizzazione is needed if the translation has to go abroad, the "Apostille" is also put on by the Tribunale. In fact this is just a confirmation of the Cancelleria's signature. I don't remember if it also requires a "marca da bollo", it has been some time since I went last time.I am a sworn translator, that means registered with the Tribunale in Pescara, but there is no law saying that only registered translators can "giurare". But what often happens is that notary offices and lawyers prefer sworn translators during rogito and contract signing (but I don't think it is a must here either).Being registered at the CCIAA has no importance in these cases, but f.x. the Tribunale in Pescare only accepts registrations from translators who are already registered at the CCIAA, so for me it was a necessary step also registering with the CCIAA.Then the funny part is, that every Tribunale in Italy has their own registration requirements, so...In real life, what often happens is that I may do the translation sending it back by email, while the agency/client who comitted the job will do the "giuramento" in their own tribunale, this way you avoid sending documents back and forth by snail mail with the risk that they may get lost.
The trick with zucchine flowers is to collect them in the sunny morning when they are fully opened, that will let you carry less insects with you back home :-) Sabs
Hi Liam,Welcome to the forum.There may be some translators members of the website offering their help in private, but if it is not so, I may give you a hand collecting a couple of quotes through one of our Italian (members only) mailing-lists for translators, but in that case you'll have to PM me.On the web you may also collect quotes by subscribing to and posting the job on the following websites (ordered with regard to seriousness and user friendliness):www.proz.comwww.translatorscafe.comwww.acquarious.comwww.gotranslators.comBUT please do keep in mind that serious translation work is a JOB and that a PRO translator needs to take a fee that allows him to earn a salary pr. hour that allows him to make a living from this job. And as with all types of jobs, price goes with quality. In Italy a translation is normally counted in words or in "cartelle" which corresponds to 25 lines of 60 signs each (1500 caraters in total). But this count can easily be done in Word. Nobody would know what a "page" is.Your cheapest bet is to use "Google Translate" (that's free) or find an Italian or British student who will be prepared to do the job for next to nothing, and then just accept the odd mistaken word.A professional translator hardly ever works towards other language than his mother tongue in order to be sure to guarantee flawless quality.Sabs(Working in the combinations: Italian, English -> Danish)
I would suggest you decide for another European country, if you can choose.In my experience it is next to impossible, but then, the fact that I'm female and being a mother - and live in Central Italy -probably makes it worse. Speaking italian is a MUST in any case.Then, if you go up north, companies are perhaps not looking so much into the fact that you haven't studied in Italy, but more into your specific work experience, but you need to have very high qualifications to get permanent employment in Italy.To be self-employed as a professional engineer requires that you become a member of the albo, ie. Ordini degli Ingegneri to be able to sign electrical projects. Also here you may find some difficulty since you're not a EU-citizen. In fact, EU-citizens can now get their "abilitazione" without sustaining the "Esame di Stato" if they were already abilitated for this type of work in their home country.Otherwise, to gain access to the Esame di Stato (for later registration with the Ordine degli Ingegneri) you first have to have your exam/title validated in Italy. As far as I know the only way is to sign up for university and ask for merit transfer for the exams already done and then see what the university says.I half-heartedly started this process myself, but gave up.I'm a chemical engineer. For civil, electrical and mechanical engineers entering the albo is easier, because traditional self-employed engineers do house-projects, geological studies, air-condition/heating, antiseismic calculations, electrical systems and so on. Only problem is that it doesn't necessarily guarantee that afterwards you'll have work. Of course, knowing somebody who knows somebody changes everything..The Ministero degli Esteri have information about riconoscimento titoli accademici stranieri, equipollenza etc. on their website.It is not straightforward and may take you several years to build up you own business, so inform yourself on the consulate, ask at the ministry, and at the engineering association in the area where you intend to live. Good luck, you'll need it!
Hi,I am self-employed as a translator/interpreter here in Italy, and in my experience is you should not be too put off by going self-employed.Opening a partita iva as a "professional" (someone who lives off his brain...) does not cost anything, what is important is that you select the category of activities with caution. I.e. mine are "translation/interpreting" and "other IT services" as I also do the occasional website. I can also teach languages, if I want. All you have to do is go to the Agenzia d'Entrate and fill out a form.At the same time you are OBLIGED to register with the INPS "gestione separata" where you pay as stated above, a percentage of your annual income for a future (very small) pension.There are various "regime agevolati" if you earn below 30 000 euro/year, this means that you should not claim vat on your bills, bookkeeping is simpler, but you will not be able to detract any expenses. So it really depends on what you do and what your work/invoicing-pattern looks like. If you opt for this simple regime, you may also do without a commercialista, most tax offices will have tutors, you can have one assigned to you who will help you with tax matters (allthough I have heard all types of horror stories..)I am in normal regime, which means that I apply 4 % inps and 20 % vat to all my bills. At the same time I detract 20 % ritenuta d'acconto which is just tax paid in advance (the italian tax office always makes you anticipate as they don't believe that one is able to manage this by one-self).I pay the VAT every 3 months (my commercialista takes care of that) and taxes etc. in 5 rates from july to november.Employing self-employed people has a lot of advantages to the employer, as they are cheaper and more flexible.For you as well as you can manage your own work-life, only thing you need to take into account is when negotiating salary, is that 50% of your invoiced amount will go to taxes/inps.The translator's association once made a calculation taking into account money/time spent on training, TFR and extra salary paid in December and made out that to have the same 1000 euro net/month as an employed italian, a self-employed professional would have to invoice 2500 euro/month.The good thing about the simple tax regime is that you'll be exempt from the "studio di settore", which is a real nuisance, I can tell you - and one of the reasons why almost everybody end up employing a commercialista.However, look around for someone who gives you a decent offer and who knows your category as a professional. I had to teach mine the basics of translation invoicing, but now he takes care of everything and never made me subject to tax controls.Good luck with it,
If you just built a 9 kWp PV-array producing approx. 9000 kWh/year, and say, you decided to SELL the produced energy instead of using the net-metering, it would look something like:Premium in conto energia: 9000 kWh/year x 0,45 euro/kWh = 4050 euro/yearSale of produced energy to ENEL: 9000 kWh/year x 0,09 euro/kWh = 810 euro/yearTotal annual "income": 4860 euro.Simple return on investment: 50 000 : 4860 euro = 10,30 years. Then you'll have to pay for your electricity as always, but if your electricity bill is above 810 euro/year, it may be more convenient to use the net-metering, since it means that you buy at a higher price than you sell...but I'm not into the twists of calculating this.Here it would also be necessary to account for reduced efficiency of panels over the years, most guarantee max. decrease of 10-20%. But they'll probably be producing longer than the incentivation period anyway..and even though you won't have the premium, you'll still have the energy to sell/use.And you're right that with time, due to reduced prices, the incentivation scheme will decrease accordingly.
Now it's me that don't get it...You consumed 9990 kWh last year.If you would want to cover all that electricity with PV, you should probably install a 8-9 kWp plant, depending on your location etc.As a rough estimate that would cost you 9 kWp x 5500 euro/kWp = 50.000 euro. A neat sum, ok.Which you do or don't want to spend for various reasons.But who said you can't keep your 15 kW supply from Enel, if that's what you need?You're connected to the ENEL grid as always, just have an extra meter running backwards when you produce excess and forward when you need to take from the grid..Also, nobody says that a PV-installation HAS to cover all your consumption - the extra consumtion you just pay as you've always done...it will just reduce your electricity bill proportionally.9 kWp requires some area (roughly 72 m2), but you could i.e. make an outdoor wood-structure as shade roof for cars, or shade next to the pool, as a total integrated solution.GSE would then pay you 9000 kWh x 0,45 euro/kWh = 4050 euro/year in premium for 20 years, payback would then be 12 years. The last 8 years fo the contract will be money earned.At the same time you have a reduced electricity bill (well, if we supposed 9000 kWh) it should be next to zero.VERY simplified, that is.Maybe all your electricity doesn't cost the same, so maybe it is not viable for you to cover your full consumption if the last consumed kWh cost less, so you should ask for a detailed economic analysis.Anyway, every situation is different...useless to try to generalise, just trying to make the mechanism clear.Obviously GSE is not a gift shop, but you benefit in terms of independence of energy price, "green" business image etc.Everybody does as he think's best.In the meantime Italy is going back to nuclear energy...http://www.affaritaliani.it/ultimissime/flash.asp?ticker=030809085327
Attention, PV basics:A 3 kWp installation means a PV-array with a nominal power of 3 kW.This is calculated multiplying the number of panels with their target power (written on them).So if each module is 220 Watt (Wp), you'd need what: 3000:220= 14 panels(modules) to build a 3 kWp installation.As there are losses in inverters, wiring etc. you'll never actually optain that output, it is the nominal power, ie. the max. theoretical output of your installation.Now, depending on your Italian region, inclination of your panels, shadowing, this panel with produce electricity depending on sunshine during the various seasons, which, over a one-year period will sum up to X kWh (kilowatthours).General guidelines for Italy (with optimal angolation 30 degrees and panels directed vs. South, no shadowing), the electricity production from a PV-installation of 1 kWp nominal power amounts to:
Northern Italy 1.000 – 1.100 kWh/year
Central Italy 1.200 – 1.300 kWh/year
Southern Italy 1.400 – 1.500 kWh/year
So, being cautious, a 3 kWp installation here in Abruzzo would generate approximately 3 x 1200 kWh = 3600 kWh/year of electricity.How much electricity do you consume in a year in kWh? That is the number you should look at, together with the cost of this electricity, to determine the viability of a PV-installation.You have a 15 kW 3 phase supply because you probably have high peak consumptions, but that does not mean that you necessarily need a 15 kWp array to cover your annual consumption. In high consumption periods you can take the extra electricity from the grid. That is what the net-metering system is there for.A PV-installation is not necessarily a viable solution in all cases, and you already have a geothermal system. But most installation companies do their proposals and energy calculations adapted to your specific conditions. Proposals are normally free, so it is silly not at least to ASK for 2 or 3 - evaluate the economics and THEN decide whether to go ahead or not.The new inverter costs as the first inverter, with time probably less, but it is prudent to calculate one replacement of the inverter during the 20-year period. This cost is almost always included in the economic analysis under "maintenance". That is also why it is important to use quality material (how many years of guarantees are offered on the materials) and not the first DIY-set found on ebay - unless you're just looking into playing around with garden lighting
Your calculation is right, if you only consider your consumption.You have not taken into account that GSE is incentivating you in "conto energia" for a 20-year period.Practically, that means thay you are paid a "premium" that varies from0,353 euro/kWh (for a PV-installation greater than 20 kWp with no architectonic integration into the building) to 0,48 euro/kWh for a small PV-installation (1-3 kWp fully integrated architectonically).This premium will be paid to you for every kWp produced over a 20 year period. So it can be considered an income. It doesn't matter if you consume the energy yourself or you feed it into the grid. Instead of net-metering you can also sell it to ENEL, we sell our production at 0,09 euro/kWh. Our 45 kWp array required an intial investment of 180.000 euros, because my husband did all the work himself (together I think we pulled something like 1300 meters of wiring...) and in the first year of production, it generated 28.000 euros in incentives and sale. It will pay itself back in 8 years. Allthough production may go down a bit, it won't lower more than 20 %, so year 9 it will give us an income of 20.000+ euros/year - and that is without working..!If you install a PV-array of 6,6 kWp (well, it doesn't actually compare as you should dimension the peak power so that the production is roughly covering your annual consumption in kWh), you would fall in the intermediate incentivation group (3-20 kWp installations), which pays 0,372 euro/kWh for an installation that is not integrated architectonically (i.e. ground installation), 0,412 euro/kWh for a partly integrated installation and 0,451 euro/kWh for a fully integrated installation (substitution of house roof, roof on car park etc.)Most privates will argue that an 8-10 year return on investment is still long, but you do have free electricity in that period (if you don't choose to sell it), and you still have the last 10 years of incentives down your pocket. You should not see it as a way to make quick money, because it's not, more like a way to become independent of the (rising) energy prices, protecting the environment, transmitting good vibes to your stakeholders etc.On the other hand, the PV-industry says that the italian incentives are far too high, so...it really depends on the eyes that see.Hm, did I manage to convince anyone yet?
Comments posted
Ram is right,Legal translations can be "giurati" by anyone, a part from the direct implicated party himself.All you need to do is to take a copy of the original and the translation to the "Cancelleria" in your nearest Tribunale and fill in the form where you swear that the translation corresponds to the original. It costs a "marca da bollo" (14,65 €, I think it is) for every 4 pages.Legalizzazione is needed if the translation has to go abroad, the "Apostille" is also put on by the Tribunale. In fact this is just a confirmation of the Cancelleria's signature. I don't remember if it also requires a "marca da bollo", it has been some time since I went last time.I am a sworn translator, that means registered with the Tribunale in Pescara, but there is no law saying that only registered translators can "giurare". But what often happens is that notary offices and lawyers prefer sworn translators during rogito and contract signing (but I don't think it is a must here either).Being registered at the CCIAA has no importance in these cases, but f.x. the Tribunale in Pescare only accepts registrations from translators who are already registered at the CCIAA, so for me it was a necessary step also registering with the CCIAA.Then the funny part is, that every Tribunale in Italy has their own registration requirements, so...In real life, what often happens is that I may do the translation sending it back by email, while the agency/client who comitted the job will do the "giuramento" in their own tribunale, this way you avoid sending documents back and forth by snail mail with the risk that they may get lost.
The trick with zucchine flowers is to collect them in the sunny morning when they are fully opened, that will let you carry less insects with you back home :-) Sabs
Hi Liam,Welcome to the forum.There may be some translators members of the website offering their help in private, but if it is not so, I may give you a hand collecting a couple of quotes through one of our Italian (members only) mailing-lists for translators, but in that case you'll have to PM me.On the web you may also collect quotes by subscribing to and posting the job on the following websites (ordered with regard to seriousness and user friendliness):www.proz.comwww.translatorscafe.comwww.acquarious.comwww.gotranslators.comBUT please do keep in mind that serious translation work is a JOB and that a PRO translator needs to take a fee that allows him to earn a salary pr. hour that allows him to make a living from this job. And as with all types of jobs, price goes with quality. In Italy a translation is normally counted in words or in "cartelle" which corresponds to 25 lines of 60 signs each (1500 caraters in total). But this count can easily be done in Word. Nobody would know what a "page" is.Your cheapest bet is to use "Google Translate" (that's free) or find an Italian or British student who will be prepared to do the job for next to nothing, and then just accept the odd mistaken word.A professional translator hardly ever works towards other language than his mother tongue in order to be sure to guarantee flawless quality.Sabs(Working in the combinations: Italian, English -> Danish)
Hi Budgie, It is NOT Enel, but GSE who has the deal...If you want to know more you should read this PDF explaining everything thouroughly, in Italian, of course.Ciaohttp://www.gse.it/attivita/ContoEnergiaF/PubblInf/Documents/GuidaContoEnergia.pdf
I would suggest you decide for another European country, if you can choose.In my experience it is next to impossible, but then, the fact that I'm female and being a mother - and live in Central Italy -probably makes it worse. Speaking italian is a MUST in any case.Then, if you go up north, companies are perhaps not looking so much into the fact that you haven't studied in Italy, but more into your specific work experience, but you need to have very high qualifications to get permanent employment in Italy.To be self-employed as a professional engineer requires that you become a member of the albo, ie. Ordini degli Ingegneri to be able to sign electrical projects. Also here you may find some difficulty since you're not a EU-citizen. In fact, EU-citizens can now get their "abilitazione" without sustaining the "Esame di Stato" if they were already abilitated for this type of work in their home country.Otherwise, to gain access to the Esame di Stato (for later registration with the Ordine degli Ingegneri) you first have to have your exam/title validated in Italy. As far as I know the only way is to sign up for university and ask for merit transfer for the exams already done and then see what the university says.I half-heartedly started this process myself, but gave up.I'm a chemical engineer. For civil, electrical and mechanical engineers entering the albo is easier, because traditional self-employed engineers do house-projects, geological studies, air-condition/heating, antiseismic calculations, electrical systems and so on. Only problem is that it doesn't necessarily guarantee that afterwards you'll have work. Of course, knowing somebody who knows somebody changes everything..The Ministero degli Esteri have information about riconoscimento titoli accademici stranieri, equipollenza etc. on their website.It is not straightforward and may take you several years to build up you own business, so inform yourself on the consulate, ask at the ministry, and at the engineering association in the area where you intend to live. Good luck, you'll need it!
Hi,I am self-employed as a translator/interpreter here in Italy, and in my experience is you should not be too put off by going self-employed.Opening a partita iva as a "professional" (someone who lives off his brain...) does not cost anything, what is important is that you select the category of activities with caution. I.e. mine are "translation/interpreting" and "other IT services" as I also do the occasional website. I can also teach languages, if I want. All you have to do is go to the Agenzia d'Entrate and fill out a form.At the same time you are OBLIGED to register with the INPS "gestione separata" where you pay as stated above, a percentage of your annual income for a future (very small) pension.There are various "regime agevolati" if you earn below 30 000 euro/year, this means that you should not claim vat on your bills, bookkeeping is simpler, but you will not be able to detract any expenses. So it really depends on what you do and what your work/invoicing-pattern looks like. If you opt for this simple regime, you may also do without a commercialista, most tax offices will have tutors, you can have one assigned to you who will help you with tax matters (allthough I have heard all types of horror stories..)I am in normal regime, which means that I apply 4 % inps and 20 % vat to all my bills. At the same time I detract 20 % ritenuta d'acconto which is just tax paid in advance (the italian tax office always makes you anticipate as they don't believe that one is able to manage this by one-self).I pay the VAT every 3 months (my commercialista takes care of that) and taxes etc. in 5 rates from july to november.Employing self-employed people has a lot of advantages to the employer, as they are cheaper and more flexible.For you as well as you can manage your own work-life, only thing you need to take into account is when negotiating salary, is that 50% of your invoiced amount will go to taxes/inps.The translator's association once made a calculation taking into account money/time spent on training, TFR and extra salary paid in December and made out that to have the same 1000 euro net/month as an employed italian, a self-employed professional would have to invoice 2500 euro/month.The good thing about the simple tax regime is that you'll be exempt from the "studio di settore", which is a real nuisance, I can tell you - and one of the reasons why almost everybody end up employing a commercialista.However, look around for someone who gives you a decent offer and who knows your category as a professional. I had to teach mine the basics of translation invoicing, but now he takes care of everything and never made me subject to tax controls.
Good luck with it,
If you just built a 9 kWp PV-array producing approx. 9000 kWh/year, and say, you decided to SELL the produced energy instead of using the net-metering, it would look something like:Premium in conto energia: 9000 kWh/year x 0,45 euro/kWh = 4050 euro/yearSale of produced energy to ENEL: 9000 kWh/year x 0,09 euro/kWh = 810 euro/yearTotal annual "income": 4860 euro.Simple return on investment: 50 000 : 4860 euro = 10,30 years. Then you'll have to pay for your electricity as always, but if your electricity bill is above 810 euro/year, it may be more convenient to use the net-metering, since it means that you buy at a higher price than you sell...but I'm not into the twists of calculating this.Here it would also be necessary to account for reduced efficiency of panels over the years, most guarantee max. decrease of 10-20%. But they'll probably be producing longer than the incentivation period anyway..and even though you won't have the premium, you'll still have the energy to sell/use.And you're right that with time, due to reduced prices, the incentivation scheme will decrease accordingly.
Now it's me that don't get it...
You consumed 9990 kWh last year.If you would want to cover all that electricity with PV, you should probably install a 8-9 kWp plant, depending on your location etc.As a rough estimate that would cost you 9 kWp x 5500 euro/kWp = 50.000 euro. A neat sum, ok.Which you do or don't want to spend for various reasons.But who said you can't keep your 15 kW supply from Enel, if that's what you need?You're connected to the ENEL grid as always, just have an extra meter running backwards when you produce excess and forward when you need to take from the grid..Also, nobody says that a PV-installation HAS to cover all your consumption - the extra consumtion you just pay as you've always done...it will just reduce your electricity bill proportionally.9 kWp requires some area (roughly 72 m2), but you could i.e. make an outdoor wood-structure as shade roof for cars, or shade next to the pool, as a total integrated solution.GSE would then pay you 9000 kWh x 0,45 euro/kWh = 4050 euro/year in premium for 20 years, payback would then be 12 years. The last 8 years fo the contract will be money earned.At the same time you have a reduced electricity bill (well, if we supposed 9000 kWh) it should be next to zero.VERY simplified, that is.Maybe all your electricity doesn't cost the same, so maybe it is not viable for you to cover your full consumption if the last consumed kWh cost less, so you should ask for a detailed economic analysis.Anyway, every situation is different...useless to try to generalise, just trying to make the mechanism clear.Obviously GSE is not a gift shop, but you benefit in terms of independence of energy price, "green" business image etc.Everybody does as he think's best.In the meantime Italy is going back to nuclear energy...http://www.affaritaliani.it/ultimissime/flash.asp?ticker=030809085327
Attention, PV basics:A 3 kWp installation means a PV-array with a nominal power of 3 kW.This is calculated multiplying the number of panels with their target power (written on them).So if each module is 220 Watt (Wp), you'd need what: 3000:220= 14 panels(modules) to build a 3 kWp installation.As there are losses in inverters, wiring etc. you'll never actually optain that output, it is the nominal power, ie. the max. theoretical output of your installation.Now, depending on your Italian region, inclination of your panels, shadowing, this panel with produce electricity depending on sunshine during the various seasons, which, over a one-year period will sum up to X kWh (kilowatthours).General guidelines for Italy (with optimal angolation 30 degrees and panels directed vs. South, no shadowing), the electricity production from a PV-installation of 1 kWp nominal power amounts to:
So, being cautious, a 3 kWp installation here in Abruzzo would generate approximately 3 x 1200 kWh = 3600 kWh/year of electricity.How much electricity do you consume in a year in kWh? That is the number you should look at, together with the cost of this electricity, to determine the viability of a PV-installation.You have a 15 kW 3 phase supply because you probably have high peak consumptions, but that does not mean that you necessarily need a 15 kWp array to cover your annual consumption. In high consumption periods you can take the extra electricity from the grid. That is what the net-metering system is there for.A PV-installation is not necessarily a viable solution in all cases, and you already have a geothermal system. But most installation companies do their proposals and energy calculations adapted to your specific conditions. Proposals are normally free, so it is silly not at least to ASK for 2 or 3 - evaluate the economics and THEN decide whether to go ahead or not.The new inverter costs as the first inverter, with time probably less, but it is prudent to calculate one replacement of the inverter during the 20-year period. This cost is almost always included in the economic analysis under "maintenance". That is also why it is important to use quality material (how many years of guarantees are offered on the materials) and not the first DIY-set found on ebay - unless you're just looking into playing around with garden lighting
Your calculation is right, if you only consider your consumption.You have not taken into account that GSE is incentivating you in "conto energia" for a 20-year period.Practically, that means thay you are paid a "premium" that varies from0,353 euro/kWh (for a PV-installation greater than 20 kWp with no architectonic integration into the building) to 0,48 euro/kWh for a small PV-installation (1-3 kWp fully integrated architectonically).This premium will be paid to you for every kWp produced over a 20 year period. So it can be considered an income. It doesn't matter if you consume the energy yourself or you feed it into the grid. Instead of net-metering you can also sell it to ENEL, we sell our production at 0,09 euro/kWh. Our 45 kWp array required an intial investment of 180.000 euros, because my husband did all the work himself (together I think we pulled something like 1300 meters of wiring...) and in the first year of production, it generated 28.000 euros in incentives and sale. It will pay itself back in 8 years. Allthough production may go down a bit, it won't lower more than 20 %, so year 9 it will give us an income of 20.000+ euros/year - and that is without working..!If you install a PV-array of 6,6 kWp (well, it doesn't actually compare as you should dimension the peak power so that the production is roughly covering your annual consumption in kWh), you would fall in the intermediate incentivation group (3-20 kWp installations), which pays 0,372 euro/kWh for an installation that is not integrated architectonically (i.e. ground installation), 0,412 euro/kWh for a partly integrated installation and 0,451 euro/kWh for a fully integrated installation (substitution of house roof, roof on car park etc.)Most privates will argue that an 8-10 year return on investment is still long, but you do have free electricity in that period (if you don't choose to sell it), and you still have the last 10 years of incentives down your pocket. You should not see it as a way to make quick money, because it's not, more like a way to become independent of the (rising) energy prices, protecting the environment, transmitting good vibes to your stakeholders etc.On the other hand, the PV-industry says that the italian incentives are far too high, so...it really depends on the eyes that see.Hm, did I manage to convince anyone yet?