Expat right to vote - A legal challenge will be lodged in the High Court tomorrow against the exclusion of expats voting in the EU referendum, the lead litigant in the case is the English 94 year old war veteran Harry Shindler who lives in Porto D
EU in/out Referendum. Many British citizens living in Europe will not have a right to vote - they are disenfranchised as have been living outside the UK for 15 years or more.
I would like to add a different view here, I feel rather than a lawyer you need only an Italian Notary. You have already "bought your husband out" so you need to register the property transfer as a compravendita by signing a public deed here.The first point of contact I believe should be, if possible, the Notary who witnessed your original deed of purchase in joint names.you and your husband sign this deed (or you could sign on his behalf using a power of attorney which can be signed in the UK but should be drafted by the Notary to ensure it has the right clauses including a clause re conflict of interest).In Italy where there is a property transfer ordered in divorce, this is exampt from tax. I beiieve where the divorce was abroad, this is not exempt, so there would be imposte catastali and imposte ipotecari payable on your husbands share.the same Notary may be able to deal with the name change to your maiden name with an "atto ricognitivo di nome". The Italian Consulate in the UK is not helpful unless you are an Italian citizen!
It is true that in theory a deed signed abroad can be deposited in Italy through a Notary here, but normally an overseas based Notary is not on the albo of Italian Notaries and will not be recognised as a public official in Italy therefore the property transfer deed will not be considered an atto pubblico and this may also effect it being registered "transcritto" on the Registri dei Immobili.So even if it is possible, which I doubt, I wouldnt advise someone to effect a property transfer in this way. It could come back to haunt him when he tries to sell.
I just wanted to add what the last member posted. You will need also to instruct a Notary in Italy, there will need to be a deed of transfer from one spouse to the other signed and registered here. The Notary in Australia could not perform the transfer deed but could witness a power of attorney nominating a person to sign the deed here. The transfer will have to be either be in the form of a donation or a sale, and property taxes will be payable as well as Notary fees, so I do agree that this will be costly, did the divorce order specify who would pay the costs of this? Tranfers on divorce are exampt from tax in Italy, but this does not apply to a divorce if it took place overseas.
It is difficult to assess exactly what could have gone wrong without having seen all of the documents you provided the Chicago Consulate- I am not aware of a clear guideline on the amount of money that you need to have in order to be granted a VISA. What they do need to be certain of, is an amount of money that will allow you to live in Italy independently (and for you to support any family members coming with you), which from what you say you have, is enough, especially for one year (the amount of time a first VISA/Permesso di Soggiorno for Residenza Elettiva is granted for). Did you provide documentation regarding your accommodation in Italy- you will also have to prove that you have somewhere to live, for example by showing a lease or a contract deed of sale if you own property there. Did they offer any kind of explanation?
Hello Joe, you need to find out exactly what type of legal transfer needs to take place between you and your siblings, if you have all been registered as heirs, there will need to be an actual sale or conveyance from you to them, mentioning the money that has changed hands previously. Sometimes I know heirs find out that there are planning issues with the property and that can block a transfer even between family members. You should have a Notary advising you about this.If a sale (or compravendita) does need to be formalised, then all parties will need to give a Special power of attorney to sell or buy their share, if they cannot come to Italy to sign a public deed in front of a Notary.These do need to be worded very precisely, and if signed abroad they must be correctly legalized with an Apostille (depending on the country they are signed in) for use abroad.So the point I am making is find out first what the legal process is, then you can be properly advised on how to draw up the powers of attorney.
Ugo I understood 85% of what he said but it did cheer me up! Hilarious. We have to laugh right now otherwise we might cry. I am personally aghast and appalled. Europe and the UK are split down the middle between who wanted us to stay and who thought we have done the right thing.I do agree that the rules should not have allowed a franchise of less than 75% to win by only 51.9%, I doubt there will be a second referendum unless the new recession hits the UK soon, in which case those who voted leave might all say they desperately want to vote again!My father lived 22 years in Spain where he worked for the Financial Times, he went "home" to the UK feeling like a true European 4 years ago to escape the property crash in Spain, for the first time I think he is regretting it, but at 82 he cant move again. I was able to move to Italy to live with my Italian partner and to set up a business here and practice law.I wont be forced to move back but might on principle take up Italian Nationality as I would like to stay part of a united Europe, and I would like to have a vote here...we should all have faith in what we believe in as the right way for the world and play our part in holding it together I think.
I would just like to clarify, that I am strongly in favour of the UK staying in the EU. I can see no valid reasons to take a backwards step but instead prefer to focus on the progress our society has made as a result of it.I also believe that the majority of British people agree with me. 67% of the population voted to stay in the EU in the 70's, and I hope that at least the same number will turn out in support of it in the Referendum this year. Thats why its important to include those expats living in Europe in this vote!Those who have pushed for this Referendum are entitled to their opinion, but in my view they do not properly represent Britian or the English.
Please see my separate post on this, expats living in Europe are very much affected by this Referendum and many of us are disenfranchised as we have lived out of the UK for more than 15 years so do not have a right to vote in it. Watch this space and the news in the next few days as I am involved in plans for a judicial review of the UK government of the failure to allow us to participate...
Would be happy to help. I am an English lawyer practising in Italy since 2001, I am qualified as an Avvocato now (under the EU freedom of establishment rules - so hoping that the UK does in fact remain in the EU!) and in 2013 set up an international law firm in Rome - Oliver & Partners.
Comments posted
I would like to add a different view here, I feel rather than a lawyer you need only an Italian Notary. You have already "bought your husband out" so you need to register the property transfer as a compravendita by signing a public deed here.The first point of contact I believe should be, if possible, the Notary who witnessed your original deed of purchase in joint names.you and your husband sign this deed (or you could sign on his behalf using a power of attorney which can be signed in the UK but should be drafted by the Notary to ensure it has the right clauses including a clause re conflict of interest).In Italy where there is a property transfer ordered in divorce, this is exampt from tax. I beiieve where the divorce was abroad, this is not exempt, so there would be imposte catastali and imposte ipotecari payable on your husbands share.the same Notary may be able to deal with the name change to your maiden name with an "atto ricognitivo di nome". The Italian Consulate in the UK is not helpful unless you are an Italian citizen!
It is true that in theory a deed signed abroad can be deposited in Italy through a Notary here, but normally an overseas based Notary is not on the albo of Italian Notaries and will not be recognised as a public official in Italy therefore the property transfer deed will not be considered an atto pubblico and this may also effect it being registered "transcritto" on the Registri dei Immobili.So even if it is possible, which I doubt, I wouldnt advise someone to effect a property transfer in this way. It could come back to haunt him when he tries to sell.
There are legal proceedings still going ahead in the UK courts involving many claimants.
I just wanted to add what the last member posted. You will need also to instruct a Notary in Italy, there will need to be a deed of transfer from one spouse to the other signed and registered here. The Notary in Australia could not perform the transfer deed but could witness a power of attorney nominating a person to sign the deed here. The transfer will have to be either be in the form of a donation or a sale, and property taxes will be payable as well as Notary fees, so I do agree that this will be costly, did the divorce order specify who would pay the costs of this? Tranfers on divorce are exampt from tax in Italy, but this does not apply to a divorce if it took place overseas.
It is difficult to assess exactly what could have gone wrong without having seen all of the documents you provided the Chicago Consulate- I am not aware of a clear guideline on the amount of money that you need to have in order to be granted a VISA. What they do need to be certain of, is an amount of money that will allow you to live in Italy independently (and for you to support any family members coming with you), which from what you say you have, is enough, especially for one year (the amount of time a first VISA/Permesso di Soggiorno for Residenza Elettiva is granted for). Did you provide documentation regarding your accommodation in Italy- you will also have to prove that you have somewhere to live, for example by showing a lease or a contract deed of sale if you own property there. Did they offer any kind of explanation?
Hello Joe, you need to find out exactly what type of legal transfer needs to take place between you and your siblings, if you have all been registered as heirs, there will need to be an actual sale or conveyance from you to them, mentioning the money that has changed hands previously. Sometimes I know heirs find out that there are planning issues with the property and that can block a transfer even between family members. You should have a Notary advising you about this.If a sale (or compravendita) does need to be formalised, then all parties will need to give a Special power of attorney to sell or buy their share, if they cannot come to Italy to sign a public deed in front of a Notary.These do need to be worded very precisely, and if signed abroad they must be correctly legalized with an Apostille (depending on the country they are signed in) for use abroad.So the point I am making is find out first what the legal process is, then you can be properly advised on how to draw up the powers of attorney.
Ugo I understood 85% of what he said but it did cheer me up! Hilarious. We have to laugh right now otherwise we might cry. I am personally aghast and appalled. Europe and the UK are split down the middle between who wanted us to stay and who thought we have done the right thing.I do agree that the rules should not have allowed a franchise of less than 75% to win by only 51.9%, I doubt there will be a second referendum unless the new recession hits the UK soon, in which case those who voted leave might all say they desperately want to vote again!My father lived 22 years in Spain where he worked for the Financial Times, he went "home" to the UK feeling like a true European 4 years ago to escape the property crash in Spain, for the first time I think he is regretting it, but at 82 he cant move again. I was able to move to Italy to live with my Italian partner and to set up a business here and practice law.I wont be forced to move back but might on principle take up Italian Nationality as I would like to stay part of a united Europe, and I would like to have a vote here...we should all have faith in what we believe in as the right way for the world and play our part in holding it together I think.
I would just like to clarify, that I am strongly in favour of the UK staying in the EU. I can see no valid reasons to take a backwards step but instead prefer to focus on the progress our society has made as a result of it.I also believe that the majority of British people agree with me. 67% of the population voted to stay in the EU in the 70's, and I hope that at least the same number will turn out in support of it in the Referendum this year. Thats why its important to include those expats living in Europe in this vote!Those who have pushed for this Referendum are entitled to their opinion, but in my view they do not properly represent Britian or the English.
Please see my separate post on this, expats living in Europe are very much affected by this Referendum and many of us are disenfranchised as we have lived out of the UK for more than 15 years so do not have a right to vote in it. Watch this space and the news in the next few days as I am involved in plans for a judicial review of the UK government of the failure to allow us to participate...
Would be happy to help. I am an English lawyer practising in Italy since 2001, I am qualified as an Avvocato now (under the EU freedom of establishment rules - so hoping that the UK does in fact remain in the EU!) and in 2013 set up an international law firm in Rome - Oliver & Partners.