architect ? Geometra ?

This has been discussed many times before - try the search facility on this site   A couple of points [from my personal view "Now, I don’t quite follow how it works, if there is an architect who will be talking with and supervising the builder/s and oversees the project, why there is a need for a geometra." Probably the wrong question - you might like to as why employ the architect as well as the geometra   "What is the difference between these two professional." The Architect is more arty farty in his design proposals - you'll get a good [pretty] design, but you need an Engineer to translate it into reality [so it doesn't fall down].  The Geometra is a more practical man - at a lower 'professional' level [hence the lower fee] - he is part design technician, part engineer and part project manager Personally, I feel a good geometra is worth his weight in gold, and if you can get a local one [by recommendation] I would dispense with the architect unless the design you want is 'uber stylish'  Tell the Geometra what you want and he'll give it to you - probably at a lower cost [and I don't just mean the fees]

Sorry, the description of the architect's role is frivolous and unfounded. A good architect will be able to provide you full professional services, including supervision. Engineers are only used to double check structure calculations. A geometra has not the same level of proficiency that an architect has. We have employed one to oversee and coordinate some works in our house while we were absent, but plans and everything to do with what we wanted to achieve had been designed by my husband, who happens to be a retired architect.  To give you a better comparison, to employ a geometra is like going to see a nurse when you need a real doctor. There is this myth about architects beeing "arty farty" which is not true. There may be a small number of them who may fall into that category: however, most of them are down-to-earth professionals who can provide you with design solutions that many people will not imagine. They will also save you money by giving you correct and efficient advice. As in all professions, there are good ones and bad ones. Check credentials.

There are important things in your home. It has to be safe and it has to work with you.  I have seen so many places where you can just see that a geometra has been at work: tell tale things: radiators blocking places where you will want a cupboard, shower areas that wont allow for a glass door and routes around the house that will be illogical as soon as you move in.  I have seen this in very expensive properties (millions) as well as more normal houses.   I would not move without an architect but 12%, even with an engineer is high unless he is really very in demand.  I can recommend Roberto Frolla whose studio is in porto San Giorgio and who works through southern marche. PM if you need anything.  regardless of what you do, walk through plans very carefully and make sure that there is provision for changes in services because the house will be there for years and your needs will change fabrizio

in a normal world.. well at least a normal country i would agree with gala.. however the truth is her e that an Italian architect will more ofetn than not be pretty useless.. and will have only passed their exam via the fact that they were reccomended to pass because of in general a relative being involved in the "caste" in fact a geometra because its available to anyone with ambition to try and achieve this qualification offers a much better chance to those looking for someone with vison and a desire to work well... architect courses cost a fortune and are available to a very limited starta of people and to set up a practice limited again by a caste system that anyone that lives in Italy knows to exist and the results of it can be seen in all the professions with in general people with such watred down ability to make Italy pretty useless on all reults regarding levels of education and qualification, economic performance and management... if the whole world sees this..outside of the italian caste system it obviously leads to the conclusion that in 9 times out of 10 it will apply to who we use.. italian education at a higher level is now regarded as useless in professional terms.. innovative architecture.. well look around and ask yourself.. other countries you might not like what you see but for sure it might give you cause to think ..  italian corruption makes it reted lower than most african countries not just european.. and this is based on the corruption of the proffesional caste... so yes in another world if you can afford it a good architect would be a preferered choice.. here i would choose the cheapest option and just work harder to make sure i got what i want by the end of it...   with fees dont forget a quote of an architect fee of 10 % on a 500,000 property arrives at 50,000then you have to add in 20 % vat on top plus their professional body fee that suddenly pops of between 1 and 3 %..  then they always have 25 % contingency.. so i would be looking to add 25,000 to their bill.. and should you argue with them and remove them from the job... at any time after you sign the contract they are protected in the sense that you will have to pay them their full bill for the whole project before they will release the project back to you.. ie you cannot get rid of them and carry on the build until they vist the comune and have their name withdrawn from the contract and permits.. you will be blocked.. its how it all works.. they look after and protect eachothers fortunes amongst themselves.. so think carefully and choose the simplest solution available...

i agree with everything adriatica has said! i did most of my own reconstruction in the end, except for the external walls. the architects and geometra's all charge way over the top and rarely tell you about the little extras like 1-3% for their professional association. They price everything separately. If you can rather than a percentage of the job try and agree a figure to oversee the job, as their fee of 12% is rediculous when combined with 7% for a geometra to which they will be tied up with. good Luck

i agree with everything adriatica has said! i did most of my own reconstruction in the end, except for the external walls. the architects and geometra's all charge way over the top and rarely tell you about the little extras like 1-3% for their professional association. They price everything separately. If you can rather than a percentage of the job try and agree a figure to oversee the job, as their fee of 12% is rediculous when combined with 7% for a geometra to which they will be tied up with. good Luck

As in any profession, you will find good architects and bad architects. This is why you must ask for and check references, as would be the case with any profession or even trade. The architect's role is to interpret the client's wishes and not to impose his/her own. He/she may suggest ideas based on knowledge, experience and personal talent. A university degree does not certify that you will be good in your profession. My husband had to teach quite a few graduate trainees basic things that they should have learnt while they were attending university... and this did not happen in Italy.

Hi Blue Lavender,we have not had a house built but are in the early stages of a renovation project.We have used the services of a geometra,he gave quotes for the house renovation in stages which helped greatly with planning each stage of works/payments/cash flow.He did all the plans and had them approved.We have had meetings when we visit and kept in touch throughout via email and photos he sends.At the moment the work is stopped, we visit later this week to see the latest stage finished to date.We are happy with our geometra and the works to date,maybe we have struck lucky!!We would agree that you do not need both.Good luck,Atessa.

Quote from alanh: "Tell the Geometra what you want and he'll give it to you" True Quote from Gala: " ...(architects) ... down-to-earth professionals who can provide you with design solutions that many people will not imagine." (My underlining.) True It's a matter of whether you (as client) are sufficiently opinionated for it not to be worth using an architect, or if you want a first class job. You have to pay for a first class job.  

I would also be quite interested to know if you need to pay a geometra if you engage an architect? Anyone know?

Penny it very much depends on how the architect is qualified.. and the ability to do the tech specs on the building either a geometra qaulified to a higher level or an engineer will need to do that sort of thing..ie stress and load ... steel and cement  quality..each load of cement in a structural area has to be certified via the factory and mixed to the specs.. and certified at that spec.. so architects might well not have the ability or knowledge to do this..  steel has to have not only the right size but has to be checked by sonic measurements and certified.. so an architects office would or maybe even should have its own engineers and geometras to do this sort of spec work in house at no extra charge.. they will often be students anyway.. or waiting to start their own office.. another extra that is used more often than not and is charge on is the geologist.. Italy has more problems with sub soil than earthquakes and a geologist will ensure that the correct foundation work is placed.. which might well invole bore holes and taking core samples.. in fact this can ofte add a large cost to a project especialley buildings on virgin land.. ie those that buy a hectare or two to build a house..  without detailed sub soil knowledge the cement piles that are put into maintain the structure can work out to be one of the highest unknown additioanl costs of a new build..  

Hi Adriatica, I would expect the engineer and geologists fees but if I pay for them and the architect, why would I pay for a geometra as well? I wondered if legally there is a requirement to have one on a project or can the architect be the person responsible for the works?

..did everything himself, but he said he was quite happy to have a geometra to collaborate with who could do alle the "boring stuff", like dealing with the comune etc. Our architect also wanted 10-12%, but since we thought it was unacceptable, we simply agreed on a more reasonable flat fee. End the end we couldn't have done without him. Good luck

I think someone once said....'you pays your money you takes your choice'........only you will know your limitations/abilities regarding input to a Geometra. If you have a competent geometra, and can describe to them what your requirements are, he/she will be able to draw up plans which you both can discuss to achieve your goal. However if you have no idea about what you require and would like a more esthetic proposition, engage an Architect, but you will also need someone who can 'work' with the Commune as well.

"We also went .......... without a solicitor." So do many Italians

Go buy a house design pc program you can work with. Use the room sizes to design what you want etc. Tell the geometra that is what you want. We did, and it worked out well.

Architect or Geometra? Architect!!! And not just beacause I am one of them....! I totally agree with Gala Placidia, esp when she says that architects "can provide you with design solutions that many people will not imagine. They will also save you money by giving you correct and efficient advice." However, if you prefer to put your restoration project in the hand of someone who just attended high school (oh yes, in Italy you become a geometra at the age of 18, after high school, with no further qualifications..!!!) why hiring an architect as well? You certainly don't need to employ both, adding the two % and spending a lot of money unnecessarily. Architects can do everything in the building process, from design, to permissions, to site work - with high qualification. And geometra's fees seem cheaper but they are not: ask your builder the % he gives to your geometra under the table!!(of course he won't tell you!) This is the little trick that makes them 'cheaper'....wake up!! I am sorry, but alan h is totally wrong: "The Geometra is a more practical man -...... - he is part design technician, part engineer and part project manager". Being part this and part that...he is basically not able to tackle an important task such as a restoration project, at least not from a professional point of view. And adriatica....well, some truth about corruption, but the rest is total cynical and delirious. Then, as Gala said, in all professions, there are good one and bad ones, but, please, it's time you all know the difference! Have a look at this: http://www.tuscany-umbria-architect.com/architect-or-geometra/-115 and then follow the link, it will explain once and for all the famous mistery: architect or geometra? Don't get fooled by those who tell you that "they are the same, but geometras are cheaper..."

Had an architect involved in a geothermal project, who did not have a clue how it worked and could not even be really bothered to find out either. In the end we gave up, as her knowledge and "expertise" showed how incompetent she was to advise on heating systems. You can tell a geometra what you want and he will normally comply, but the architect knows it all!!!

Hello,   Sorry for not coming back to the Forum sooner – busy gardening… Thank you all so much for sharing your experience and thoughts.  Lots of points have been mentioned that I have to take into consideration, for example Filid's point of getting advance "...detailed preventivo... " I will for sure let you know of our decision.  Before I sign off, let me tell you that it is true that our architect (to be) is expensive, but it would be only fair to acknowledge too that we have checked his credentials and he is “value for money”.     Must dash !!  I have a building to plane for !!! BL

"What was the core of their 'academic' qualification?" Perhaps its often more important to have practical experience than just academic qualifications - and I think that, for many types of building works - but not all, there is where geometras win. In effect - it's horses for courses

Your Quote: perhaps for a geothermal project you should have asked a mechanical engineer? I did not say that architects can do everything...architects deal with architecture (restoration, new design, materials, etc) and so they should be employed in their field (ie, restoration work in this topic), but for advise on heating systems an engineer would be the right professional to employ. We were the engineers that the client had asked about the project. Unfortunately the "architect" decided that she was the expert on the heating. I must admit that apart from one other project, I have never seen so many un-intelligent emails in quite a long time.  Unfortunately, I have deleted all the emails, but this comment from her to the client showed her level of expertise in everything. I will try and look up on the old site the example of her plumber and how underfloor heating should look. Did you know that the water from the ground loop was brought into the pump, where an immersion heater then heated it to the temperature required. Not a go at you Marco, just highlighting what you yourself say above.

I think having read all the posts here there is a Moral here....good and bad in either profession so best advice is go on a Personal Recommendation from some one you know and trust and see how the project turned out. Advice is always free, it's the decision that can cost you....

" .......  a geometra building is likely to cost the client more unexpected charges than an architect building ........." Mine didn't - came in under estimate  [mind you - it was only a smallish restructuring]

When you look around and see new houses going up they often have one theme in common. They are usually characterless boxes without even a nod to charming traditional features like arches and balconies. Worst of all they are often a bright bile yellow and on this point I think I prove my theory. It's all about drawing packages which have become so much easier to use that even an untrained person - some might say Geometra - can knock up a passable looking boxy drawing complete with impressive trees and passers by. The best colour to show of the drawing is this bright yellow and this imprints itself so firmly in the clients mind that when it comes to choosing a colour it's yellow that jumps to mind straight away. Architects are the ones that are trained in vernacular, balance , ratios etc - give them the job I say.